"Pictures of submarine games?" Topic

I would welcome any pictures of submarine models in action.

I have 1/700 HobbyBoss models to make up and was thinking of having these on perspex rods, perhaps 3" high, to give an indication of them floating in the water, rather than them sitting on the small stands which come with the kits. Another option is to have rods of 3 or 4 different heights to represent various operating depths.

Any sugestions on how others have mounted the models would be appreciated.

I recall taking a date out to watch submarine races.

That said, I really like your idea about the rods.

I believe John Treadaway and/or David Manley have done "Stingray" games at UK conventions, there should be some photos here on TMP if you search for Stingray.

What rule set covers miniature submarine warfare?

There were a few hex-and-counter games in the 1970s and/or 1980s, but I don't know of any miniatures rules.

I think the Stingray rules were posted online, but that's sort of pulpy sub-fi. Harpoon might work. Might.

snapshotmodernsub.webs.com

Snapshot is pretty neat, and designed to work with 1/700 subs.

(For the turning keys, use the ones from Spartan Games for Dystopian Wars.)

PDF link

Shameless, self-promotional plug for telescoping "Dogfight Flight Stands" from Topgun, which will work.

They have five sections, and extend from 7" – 22" in height. Magnets on their tips, in matching polarity sets, for easy attachment/removal from your models/minis.

Swiveling heads to permit diving, rising/climbing, banking, and other maneuvers.

4" and 5" clear hex base options.

E-mail me at:

Topgungrav AT yahoo d 0 t com

if you want more info, or to make a purchase.

thanks

The problem with submarine gaming (if you want it to really model sub v sub combat) is that it's a game of detection, not of shooting, and I haven't found a way to make detection particularly exciting yet.

blind eggshells armed with sledgehammers.

Detection ranges are obscenely short. I can't tell you just how short, other than to say, yes, submarines have run into each other while underwater because at least one of the subs had no clue the other was there. (Several stories in Blind Man's Bluff)

Another thing to remember is that the ocean is a very unfriendly place, and subs only play in the top 800+ feet of it. Deeper than that is a no-go zone. basically 2-4 sub-lengths from surface to "too deep". And yet, the water can have greatly different properties in even that little distance. There is usually a thermocline about 2-300 feet down, which makes it very difficult to detect ships or subs on the far side of the "layer".

There is also a conversion for models of Attack Sub which can be obtained on Boardgame Geek, although I may well go for Snapshot.

I have been monkeying around with a conversion of Full Thrust, it mostly works.

I us(ed) a system illustrated by the following tiny image (small size thanks to the new Google Plus).

A surfaced sub is just the model, a detected submerged sub is the model on a disk of paper (color of disk intended to make model harder to see than if on surface, but still blue so it sort of matches the table), and an undetected submerged sub is just the disk (which could be a dummy). The 3-D -type game with variable-height stands looks too obtrusive to me, and anyway, most of the time you don't know where the subs are.

MH

Lion, I'd be interested in seeing your FT version.

I've mulled over a few different systems, and setting assumptions, because I'm thinking of things like fighter subs and lots of ROVs, etc. FT comes to mind, as does Silent Death. They're much more cinematic, though, than realistic. And considering that alien subs are part of my setting, well…

Yes, any thoughts on using FT would be appreciated.

Are we talking WWII U-Boats etc. (since this is posted on a WWII board)?

My enquiry was initially about stands for any subs.

However, my interest in rules is for the modern period.

@NVDoyle: funny, you're the guy who got me started on this in the first place!

Link to the pdf version on my Google Drive: link

You will need a copy of Full Thrust to play.

@Lion – thanks, glad I could be inspirational! I'll check them out, at least with a read, soon.

@Lion- Great work on the rules. Quick (dumb) question: Which edition of FT are they written for, 1st or 2nd?

FT2, though they reference FT Continuum.

Are there any places I can clarify or improve? Aside from writing the whole movement rules into my doc, of course.

Thanks, Lion. No, they're pretty complete as is. Got a buddy who use to be a SSN driver (last served on a 688I) that has been looking for a set of rules to run some sub actions. I think this may be the ticket.

I used to drive 726s, these should be close. Though the detection ranges are numbers I basically pulled out of my butt, and then modded to roughly match open-source noise comparisons.

Asset Management

This week's game saw the NATO forces in the North Atlantic trying to reinforce its position with a view to supporting the beleaguered Iceland garrison and Keflavik airfield. To do this the USSS Wasp (LHD-1) with 2000 marines was urgently needed to transit the gap between Nova Scotia and Greenland. The only escorts available from the forces already stretched trying to close the GIUK gap were the USS Perry and a short redeployment of the USS Dallas (Los Angeles Class SSN). To boost he small forces defence the Wasp had taken on 6 ASW Sea kings as Soviet sub activity was expected. This proved right as Red Banner Northern Fleet has expected a move of this nature and sent a warning to its 2 submarines patrolling this sector. Satellite passes gave more detailed locations to the Soviets and the Akula and Stalin (Alfa class) moved in to intercept. The Soviet subs moved in from the North East whilst the Wasp and Perry launched Sea Hawks and Sea kings investigate. Despite a short hail storm that temporarily grounded the helicopters they managed to get airborne again and after dropping several DICASS sonar buoys the helo's established weak contacts on the subs. Going after the noisier Alfa a Seahawk closed in and dropped a Mk46 homing torpedo. Unfortunately the Alfa had anticipated this and using its full speed turned inside the torpedo before it could arm. However the noise caused by its cavitation was an easy signature to follow and 2 more helo's homed in on the Alfa and a Sea King began a vigorous sonar lashing of the sub. With no alternative the Alfa headed deep and fast to try and evade. Meanwhile the quieter Akula closed in on the surface ships. The first thing the Akula knew of the Dallas was the sound of a MK48 torpedo being electrically fired from long range; the Dallas had been quietly stalking her prey. Playing a dangerous game of chicken with the Mk48 homing in, the Akula kept heading for the surface ships and managed to gain a firing solution and fire off a torpedo. The Akula dodged the first attack of the MK48 with a decoy but the Dallas maintained control of the torpedo and on its second pass the Akula's rear compartment and engine room were laid open to the sea and the Akula began its last dive to bottom. The Dallas had meanwhile obtained a better contact on the fleeing Alfa and fired a MK48 after her. The helo's also dropped MK46 torpedoes but these only had a speed roughly equal to the Alfa, but nevertheless forced the Alfa on a straight avoidance course. The Akula's solitary torpedo, now using its own seeker homed in on the Perry and Wasp and only by luck missed both targets. With the Alfa forced to evade straight away from the MK46 torpedoes the MK48 from the Dallas eventually caught up with the Stalin and blew her in half. The Marines on the Wasp could safely head to Iceland and the Dallas chalked up 2 more kills.
Rules Update
The more detailed rules for sonar buoys worked well and were more realistic, forcing the surface force commander (me) to really think about placement. It also forced me to really think about which helo's to use as only the Sea Kings had dipping sonar. The play really highlighted the problems of hunting Soviet submarines, the quieter Akula and the noisy but very fast Alfa. I had to resort to forcing the Alfa away (which helped achieved my objective) but the sheer speed of the Alfa if evading meant I couldn't get a torpedo close enough to engage, without using all my helo's and lots of torpedoes (not something I could do with that Akula also lurking about). With each helo only carrying 2 torpedoes it would have left me with no active helo's while they rearmed. Thankfully the noise the Alfa was making gave the Dallas a good shot that ultimately killed the Alfa. Without the Dallas I would have struggled…
I think I will have to refine the sonar buoy rules slightly and look at other weapon systems for helo's such as depth charges. But perhaps the best tactic against an Alfa is to drive it off with the chance of a kill as once you force it to full speed its offensive capabilities are pretty much over, unless a bold Captain chances his arm by using the speed initially to get in close for a quick attack and evade. More tweaks to follow and more ships to build…..

@Weredoomed: what rules did you use? Sounds like something pretty high-detail like Harpoon.

Hi, I use my own conversion of the old Avalon Hill card game 'Attack Sub' for tabletop games using 1/700 models. My conversion is uploaded to the boardgamegeek site for attack sub. Very quick andca lot of fun !(at least we think so !)