"Detailed Soviet OoB Questions for UsmanK and others" Topic

Hi all,

Have a few disparate OoB questions was hoping you could help me with:

1 ) What was the composition of the Army level Independent Assault Landing Battalion ( primarily interested in the 900th attached to 8th Guards Army in the 1980s ) ? FM 100-2-3 ( PDF link ) and Fire and Fury ( PDF link ) both give it as 1xBMD company and 2-3x Para companies. However, they also state that Front-level Independent Air Assault Brigades have 2xBMD battalion and 2xPara battalions, while Michael Holm ( link ) says 1xBMD and 3xPara. There is also a detailed 1987 brigade organization in Russian here ( link ) that agrees with the 1xBMD and 3xPara mix. So I'm a little hesitant to trust the FM and Fire and Fury on this topic.

2 ) Somewhat similar, what is the proportion of BMDs in a VDV Airborne Division ( specifically the 76th at Pskov ) around 1983? Some sources state that every regiment was fully equipped, while MicroMark says one battalion per regiment, and the 1981 Isby is unsure on the matter, but guesses about 1/3 equipped. I know BMDs took a while to produce and get to the units, so wondering when units got their full complement of them.

3 ) Still interested in the T-55s in the Leningrad Military District. From my previous post: "Wondering if anybody has any idea on if/when the Leningrad MD upgraded their T55s in their MRDs to the T-55M/AM standard. Primarily interested in the 131st MRD, 54th MRD, 111th MRD, and 77th GMRD.

The 131st and 54th were Ready-Reduced Strength 1 divisions, while the 111th and 77th were Not Ready-Cadre Low Strength divisions. They also used the PT-76 as an MBT in the MRRs, so the T-55s were only found in the TR ( after 1987 reduced to a battalion in these formations ) .

Likewise, the 61st and 175th Independent Naval Infantry Brigades also had T-55s, i know the Naval Infantry championed the Drozd system in the early 80s before abandoning it for ERA.

Primarily looking for 1983 timeframe."

4 ) When did the 2S9 start making its way into Airborne units? I know wikipedia says 1981, but its Wikipedia…

5 ) Completely separate, but was there a standard paint scheme for VVS aircraft in the early 1980s? Primarily interested in Su-17, Su-24, Mig-27, Mig-23, and Mig-21 units. I've checked the Wings Palette website, but many different schemes come up.

Thanks so much!

Can't help on most of the stuff.

Wings Palette is an excellent source.

Generally, air-to-air units will be in natural metal, or overall gray, I suspect.

Air-to-ground units are usually in camo..

I think around the mid-1980s, they started adding other camo to the later model jets.

Hello, MadMax17!

1. Separate Airborne assault battalions:
For example, take the 1044 Battalion (to 1982-1984, then was out reconnaissance platoon):
3 airborne company (on feet)
1 amphibious assault company (BMD 10, BTR-D 2)
mortar battery
anti-tank battery (armed SPG)
platoon connection
air defense missile platoon
reconnaissance platoon (2 BMD)

For some battalions had the same structure. So – 3 Companies "on feet" and 1 on BMD.

2. Production of BMD-1 was launched in 1969, and by 1979 they produced about 2,200, so . For example, in the 104-th division by 1980 was only one regiment without BMD (at ASU-57). It is for the 76th Division, I do not have accurate information, but by 1985 it was already fully rearmed on BMD.

3. Do not quite understand the question. In any case, in 1980 part of the T-55 in the Leningrad Military District was not upgraded.

4. 2C9 in normal amounts began to arrive in 1983.

5. Su-24 – a blue and white (camouflage were only export samples). MiG-21 – at different times in different ways, later camouflaged. Su-17, MiG-23 and MiG-27 – camouflage.

Hi Mako11 and UsmanK,

Thanks for your responses! Some follow up questions:

1 ) Thanks for the info on the 1044th Battalion, it looks like they were attached to 1st Guards Tank Army, so probably safe to assume the 900th with the 8th Guards Combined Arms Army right next to 1GTA was equipped similar.

For the mortar battery, do you know if that was 82mm or 120mm?

Does this link for the 35th Guards Air Assault Brigade ( link ) look correct for that brigade? There's a diagram in Russian on the page. They show both 82mm and 120mm mortars in each battalion, that's the first time I've seen that…

2 ) Thank you for the info on the BMDs in the 104th and 76th divisions. Do you have any other info on the 76th in other years, for example 1980 like the 104th?

3 ) I am trying to understand if the T-55s in the 131st Motor Rifle Division, 54th Motor Rifle Division, 111th Motor Rifle Division, and 77th Guards Motor Rifle Division were upgraded to the T-55M/AM standard ( with brow armor, laser range-finder, the 9K116 Bastion missile, etc in the 1980s. Or if they were left unmodified.

Likewise, any information on the T-55s in the 61st and 175th Naval Infantry Brigades would be appreciated.

4 ) Thank you for the date on the 2C9, very helpful!

5 ) Thanks for the info on the aircraft paint schemes. When it came to camouflage for the Su-17, Mig-23, Mig-27, and Mig-21, I have seen some two-color, some three-color, and even some five-color. Was there any standardization? Or did units paint their planes however they wanted?

Thank you!

Hello, MadMax17!

1) All of these battalions (if I remember correctly, 19 battalions) were absolutely the same structure.
Mortars – such as 120 mm.

Yes, this table seems correct. And there were like 120-mm and 82-mm mortars.

2) Unfortunately, the no more information about 76th div. re-armed I have. I have met only a vague mention of the fact that the upgrading of this division was completed by the middle of the 1980s

3) Unfortunately, I have no detailed information on the tanks modernization of the Leningrad Military District. Judging by the few photographs, they were not subjected to modernization.
Yes, in principle why – these divisions are located in Karelia, and there dense forests and swamps.

61 Brigade: yes, there were modernized T-55AM (mostly) and T-55AMV (some, probably 5-6). In total there were 40 T-55 of all modifications.
Here there are a few photos of these tanks in the 61 th Brigade panzer35.ru/forum/45-10916-1

175 Brigade: only the T-55A. Also of 40 units.

4) Similarly, while I can not say, but in principle there are 3 basic colors (green, brown, sand and basic blue). Camouflage was applied, as a rule, on repair plants, as a result of aircraft in different parts of quite different color.
That principle is more or less a typical camouflage for the MiG-23:
postimg.cc/image/6rfl4jyqt

My understanding too is that the infantry component of the VDV Divisions (which had a 'strategic' role potentially including taking ground way beyond their landing zones) were fully equipped with BMDs (c330) during the time period in question.

But- whether there would be sufficient airlift capacity in a general war scenario to transport more than a fraction of the BMDs into battle was a rather doubtful question, even given mass requisition of civilian aircraft.

As I understand it re the 1980s, airlifting a VDV Division with ALL of its vehicles in a small number of lifts was something anticipated by the Soviet Army as most realistic in a limited war or lead up to war scenario- eg sending one to Syria to prevent total rout by the Israelis in the case of renewed conflict there. Not suggesting it was impossible in a central front general war, but it would have been a huge drain on resources and a very big risk unless NATO air defences were thoroughly supressed.

David Isby's 'Ten Million Bayonets' has a couple of informative chapters on airborne divisions and air assault brigades- with interesting stats on the lift requirements of various units with and without vehicles.

Hello, seneffe!

Well, there it all is simple. BMD-1 dropped from an airplane with a parachute (the same applies to the AMS-57). The main aircraft for its transport – AN-12 (2 BMD-1 on board) and IL-76 (3 BMD-1 on board), and they have done quite a lot, and most of them are run by the armed forces. Plus, requisition civilian aircraft has been simplified to the limit. So for this aircraft was missing.

Actually, the VDV were built in the Soviet military system quite organically. Their sole purpose was to destroy the enemy's rear, and the distraction of the enemy forces. The maximum of the VDV had to hold on for 3-4 days, no more, and this time they could well suffer 90% losses. On the ar defense of NATO at the time the landing should have already take care nuclear warheads.

Regarding air lifts – it was side-effect, and special efforts to ensure they are not applied. For example, an air lift to Ethiopia in 1977 provided a total of 225 aircraft.

Hi UsmanK,

Thank you again for your answers!

1) Thanks for the confirmation. I forgot that these were DShB formations, not VDV, so the extra weapons makes sense now. They were very heavily armed!

2) Ok I understand, thank you for the information on the 76th!

3) Ok, so the 131st MRD, 111th MRD, 54th MRD, 77th GMRD, and 175th Naval Infantry Brigade all had non-modernized T-55As due to their location on Karelia (not good "tank country")? Only the 61st Naval Infantry had modernized T-55M/AM?

4) Great, thank you on the camouflage colors, only the 3 color for most of the planes!

Thank you!
-Max

Hello, MadMax17!

3) As I understand – yes. Plus, like by 1986 almost all the units of the Leningrad Military District rearmed on the T-80 (about that I'm not sure, but such information is, and it could in principle take place – T-80 produced in Leningrad on Kirov factory).
The terrain in Karelia and areas near Leningrad is in fact very bad for the tanks – and so long as there remained PT-76 is able to move on strongly waterlogged soil.

As far as I've understood it, the northern tanks were indeed mainly unupgraded T-55s until the T-80. The reason for not having T-72 or T-64 was mainly ground pressure and engine power keeping T-55s and PT-76s alive.
Expected opposition was of course not exactly M1A1 standard either.

youtu.be/tiqAAuoL3_A

That is true regarding opposing tanks, Leopard 1s and M48s in Norwegian service mostly; I can see how the upgrade kits were probably better utilized in the Western TVD.

And the 61st Naval Infantry Brigade got the upgraded T-55s because who knows where they were going to be employed, seems reasonable to me. I wonder if they actually used any of the T-55ADs with Drozd system, or went straight to T-55M/AM?

Hello, MadMax17!

T-55AD in the 61th Brigade was not. They were in the naval infantry brigades on Black Sea.

Hi UsmanK,

Ok, good to know, thank you, I wonder why only the Black Sea Brigade?

A few questions about the 61st Naval Infantry Brigade:

1) Do you know when they upgraded their T-55s?

2) According to this site: link in 1979 there were 30 PT-76 and 10 T-55 in the tank battalion; but by 1990 there were 23 PT-76 and 40 T-55; do you know when this change occurred?

Thank you!

Hello, MadMax17!

Why – I'm even afraid to guess. There may be no logic easily.

1) Tanks were supplied already upgraded to the level of T-55AM in 1980. By the way, one company of T-55 looks like was not upgraded.
2) Since May 1980. Before this 3 tank companies in 111 tk bn 61 MP bde has Pt-76, and one T-54. To be precise, in 1989-1990 then there were 40 T-55 and 26 PT-76.

Hi UsmanK,

Yes, logic and military frequently don't go together!

I am rather confused on those two points… Let me see if I can get this right:

-Prior to 1980, 3 tank companies of PT-76, 1 tank company of T-54 (not upgraded)
-After May 1980, they receive some T-55AM; how many companies? Still 3 companies of PT-76?
-In 1989, now there are 3 companies of T-55 (13 tanks each, one company is not upgraded), and 2 companies of PT-76 (13 tanks each)

So what happened between 1980 and 1989?

Thanks!
-Max

Hello, MadMax17!

From 1980 to 1993 the composition of the tank battalion in 61 br has not changed (as far as I know). It was in 1980, 40 medium and 26 amphibious tanks were introduced.
New equipment has been received no later than 1981 Judging by the numbers of tanks, originally (in 1980) we have been received non-upgraded T-55, and in 1981-1983 they have been upgraded to the level of T-55AM. Several tanks (probably no more than 2-6) is brought to the level of T-55AM, and later (when it is – I do not know) were brought to the level of T-55AMV.

Hi UsmanK,

Thank you! A few follow up questions:

1) You previously said one company of T-55s in the 61st Naval Infantry Brigade was not upgraded to T-55AM, could these unupgraded tanks be the OT-55 flamethrower tanks?

2) This site, ww2.dk/new/navy/61obrmp.htm, says there were 4 infantry battalions in the 61st brigade, is that correct?

3) For the 35th and 36th Air Assault Brigades, a MicroMark OoB I have says their artillery battalion had 2 batteries of 76mm Mountain Guns until 1987, then after that they were replaced with 3 batteries of D-30 and 1 battery of BM-21V (12 shot airborne version). Is that correct?

4) For the Leningrad MD Motor Rifle Divisions, this site, link says that in 1987 their Tank Regiment was downgraded to a battalion. Also, their 1990 strength numbers say 13 PT-76 in each Motor Rifle Regiment (1 company). Prior to 1987, was their Tank Regiment a full T-55 regiment? And did the Motor Rifle Regiments have a full battalion of PT-76?

Thank you!

Hello, MadMax17!

1) Never heard of flamethrower tanks in the Naval inf. There is no 100%.
2) Yes, the site has the correct composition for 1980-1993.
3) 76-mm mountain guns GP obr.1958 was only in 11, 13 and 21st assault brigades (1 battery). A 35 and 36 brigades were created without the mountain guns (there really was 3 batteries D-30 and 1 battery BM-21V).
4) Yes, before there were full regiments. At the end of 1980, in connection with the preparation of an agreement on limiting conventional arms in Europe, the division was transferred to the "northern" pattern. Now the tank regiments were converted to tank battalions (for T-80 and T-55). So, yes – before 1987 divisions of the Leningrad Military District had a full tank regiment.
As for the PT-76 is not exactly say – for me the organizational structure of battalions and companies with these tanks is a kind of Terra Incognita.

Hi UsmanK,

1) Ok, interesting. So there was just one company of un-upgraded T-55, and the rest of the companies were T-55AM?

2) Ok thank you. And the 883rd Naval Infantry Battalion was cadre-only, meaning they required many reservists to fill the ranks correct?

3) Great, thank you; so they had D-30/BM-21V from 1980 onward.

Do you know if these Brigades (and the independent battalions of the DShB) used the 9K115 "Metis" (AT-7 "Saxhorn) anti-tank missiles? Or only the 9K111 "Fagot" (AT-4 "Spigot")?

4) I understand, thank you. So it's probably safe to assume these divisions had "normal" organizations prior to transferring to the "northern" pattern of arms reduction then?

Thank you again for your help, very much appreciated!

Hello, MadMax17!

1) Yes, something like that. But, it seems, still by 1989 all T-55 in this brigade were completely modernized.
2) Yes. It is available only unit commanders (from platoon and higher). On filling reservists assigned, if my memory serves me, from 2 to 15 days. Cadred they have become in the Russian army, when there was a wholesale reduction of everything.
3) "Mestis"/"Saxhorn" was used in the airborne infantry companies of Airborne Brigades since 1979. "Fagot"/"Spigot" – in anti-tank batteries.
4) Yes, before they had a standard structure (taking into account local conditions).

Hi UsmanK,

1) Ok, so at some point between 1981 and 1989 that last company of T-55s got upgraded. Were all 26 PT-76s in the tank battalion? Or were 13 in the tank battalion, and 13 in the reconnaissance battalion?

2) Ok, but they have all their equipment, just not the personnel until mobilized, correct?

3) Ok, so both VDV and DShB parachute companies had them. Do you know how many? 3 per company like the BTR Motor Rifle companies? But they were not present in the BMD companies correct?

Did the Naval Infantry companies use the Metis/Saxhorn as well?

Thank you!

Hello, MadMax17!

1) In the 1993 PT-76 were in the tank battalion and the reconnaissance battalion (earlier information not available). Perhaps they really were divided equally.
2) Yes, absolutely true.
3) With ATGMs have been some confusion in the sense that it is not clear what types of ATGMs were in the infantry and in antitank battery of battalion.
A total of 36 Fagot/Spigot and 18 Metis/Saxhorn per 3 Battalions – in the company 4 Fagot/spigot and 2 Metis/saxhorn.
The anti-tank battalion of brigade has 12 Metis.
Yes, in companies with BMD ATGMs were not.

Yes, the Naval infantry also used the Metis, but how much and in wht divisions – I do not know.

Excellent, thank you for all of your help UsmanK, i really appreciate it!

now thats what I call an interesting thread, MadMax17 whats the game going to be?

have you come across any good sources describing ship to shore Ops for Naval Inf – best I have found to date is Soviet Naval Tactics by Vego which has a chapter

"1. Separate Airborne assault battalions:
For example, take the 1044 Battalion (to 1982-1984, then was out reconnaissance platoon):
3 airborne company (on feet)
1 amphibious assault company (BMD 10, BTR-D 2)
mortar battery
anti-tank battery (armed SPG)
platoon connection
air defense missile platoon
reconnaissance platoon (2 BMD)"

Hello UsmanK! I have a few questions about the above if you don't mind.

1. In the amphibious assault company, I understand the 10 BMDs like in a normal MR company has 10 BMPs, but what are the 2 BTR-Ds for?

2. The mortar battery would contain 6 120mm mortars correct?

3. In the anti-tank battery you say they had SPG, that would be the SPG-9 recoilless gun correct? How many of them were in the battery, 6?

4. What is the platoon connection?

5. Would the air defense missile platoon be mounted in BMDs or on foot with the other 3 companies?

Also a few extra questions, for a DshB Battalion like this, it would be transported to battle by helicopters rather than by planes like VDV divisions correct? So then it would seem that the BMDs would be transported by Mi-6 or Mi-26 helicopters(1 per Mi-6/26) and the mortars, anti tank battery, air defense platoon, and infantry would all be transported in Mi-8 helicopters correct?

From what I understand VDV would drop far behind lines from planes while DshB air assault units would move by helicopters behind lines to take immediate objectives. Is that correct?

Thanks.

Hi Andy Rix,

I like using board games to set the operational framework for miniatures games; so playing the board game, then fighting out any interesting battles with miniatures rather than rolling the board game dice. Currently interested in operations in Northern Norway, and will be using this game, link Very different from the standard central European armor slugfests!

Haven't really found any resources for Ships to Shore ops for Naval Infantry, though haven't really been looking. The board game abstracts that out, and naval infantry conduct their landing if they haven't been intercepted by opposing naval forces. Perhaps a good question for UsmanK if the doctrine differs substantially from that of the USMC for example.

Hello, Fallout2077!
Google Translator, and something I inadvertently missed. There's still no 2 and 4 BTR-D.

1) "amphibious assault company" – actually airborne-assault company.
BMD were part of the platoons (3 platoons of 3 BMD) + 1 commander's BMD. BTR-D – in a machine-gun platoon and in the company's mortar platoon (2 BTR-D in the MG platoon and 2 BTR-D in a mortar platoon). In company's mortar platoon – 82-mm mortars.

2) 8 120-mm mortars.

3) Yes, the SPG-9. I'm just out of habit writing SPG. How many – I don't know.

4) "platoon connection" – Communication Platoon.

5) On foot.

Yes, in theory they should use helicopters. There really is a problem with the technique – BMD in MI-6 does not fit in size. The Mi-26 lift two BMD. The infantry and foot units transported and on Mi-8 and on Mi-6.

Yes, in fact the case. At the beginning of the conflict, these battalions were to guard the headquarters of the armies in which they entered. Then, presumably, air assault battalions were to be used to capture and destroy communications centers, headquarters, ferries, airports and missile bases.

Hi Fallout2077,

I can take a stab at the questions, and UsmanK can surely fill in the blanks and correct any mistakes I make.

1) From the sources I have seen, it appears that in DShB BMD rifle companies there's an 82mm mortar section/platoon mounted in BTR-Ds. The source I have says x4 82mm in x4 BTR-D, but I imagine x2 82mm in x2 BTR-D is also quite possible.

2) Yes the battalion level mortar battery would be 120mm. I have seen various sources as to whether it is x6 or x8, as I think Soviet artillery and mortar assets increased from 6 to 8 in the early 80s, then went back down to 6 in the late 80s.

3) In the battalion level anti-tank unit, I believe it is x6 AT-4 Spiot/Fagot, and x3 SPG-9 73mm RR.

4) I imagine that is a communications/signal platon

5) In an Independent Air Assault Battalion at Army level, the Anti-Air platoon might be mounted in UAZ-469 or something similar or may be dismounted, I have seen sources of both. Also, be aware that in the early 80s, the SA launchers were kept at the company level (x3 each), and at some point in the later 80s they were consolidated to a platoon at battalion level (same number of total launchers).

Hope that helps!
-Max

***edit to ad: UsmanK beat me to it by a few minutes!***

Hi UsmanK,

Ah I was not aware of the presence of a machine gun platoon in DShB or VDV companies.

I know Motor Rifle Companies in high-readiness (both BTR and BMP) had them, mounted in two vehicles, but I thought they were the only ones.

1) Did both DShB parachute (foot) and BMD companies have them?

2) Did both VDV parachute (foot) and BMD companies have them?

3) Did Naval Infantry companies have them?

4) Did lower readiness Motor Rifle units have them?

Thanks!
-Max

Hello, MadMax17!

Um, what about the doctrine of the Soviet marines I know very little. In practice, it was used mainly to support all sorts of Guinea, Benin, Seychelles and similar socialist states.
The only thing I can say about the possibility of landing in Norway – special climatic problems is not a problem.

If this is a machine-gun platoon, then:
1) DSHB on BMD – yes; "On feet" – existed in the period from 1979 to 1981-1983, the
2) It seems there was not.
3) There are no details, nothing definite can not say.
4) If take a company on APC, then the company on the BTR-70 and BTR-60 has a machine-gun platoon. At the company on the BTR-80 had not machine-gun platoon. About companies on BTR-152, BTR-50 and BTR-40 I do not know. Those that companies "on truck" like no machine-gun platoon.

Hello UsmanK, MadMax17,

So it is 14 vehicles in the BMD company, 10 BMDs(3 platoons of 3 and then the company commanders BMD), and 4 BTR-Ds(2 for the MG platoon and 2 for the 82mm mortar platoon). Is that correct?

A few more questions:

1. Would the communication platoon be mounted in vehicles or on foot?

2. Would the mortar battery with 8 120mm mortars be mounted on BTR-Ds like the company mortars?

3. In the machine gun platoon, they would have how many machine guns, and what type, PKM or RPK?

4. MadMax17, you mention that in the early 80s instead of an air defense platoon, they would have 3 SA launchers per company(so 1 in each platoon). So for all 4 companies that would be 12 total correct? Then when they did take them out and put them in their own platoon in the later 80s they would have 12 launchers? Do you think in 1983 the air defense platoon would not be made yet?

5.On the machine gun platoon, UsmanK said that they were also in the 3 on foot companies fro 1979 till 1983, I am mostly interested in late 1983, do you think they would still be there or would they have been removed by them?

Thanks for the help you both have given, sorry for so many questions, I am just very confused on the matter.

Hello, Fallout2077!

A company on BMD – yes, that's right.

1. On foot. Sometimes it imparts a UAZ-469 (also known as "the goat").
2. No, he was on the GAZ-66.
3. The machine-gun platoon just PK, PKM and PKMS. The machine-gun platoon in DSHB – 6 mg's(3 per machine-gun section).
5. According to some data, the machine-gun platoon was disbanded as early as 1981.

Thank you! One other question, the 1 BMD company has 2 82mm mortars in 2 BTR-Ds, would the other 3 companies on foot have 2 82mm mortars as well or no?

Hello, Fallout2077!

Other 3 companies (on foot) have 4 82-mm mortars in mortar platoons (carryng "on foot").

Hi MadMax 17

That looks like an interesting idea, currently I am looking at Strategic and Operational/Strategic targets for Desant opperations and that seem like a very credible story do you know if is it based on actual Soviet Intentions/Plans

Hi Fallout 2077,

3) As UsmanK said, PK (and variants) in the MG platoon. RPK was at the squad level, similar to the SAW in American units.

4) Regarding the Air Defense platoon… I don't know the exact date. But yeah, 3 per company, 9 in most battalions, 12 in 4-company battalions. I am also doing the late 1983 Able-Archer 83 period, and am going to be putting them in one platoon. I do MSH for miniatures games, and this will be easier than parceling them out to each stand. Am going to be doing the same thing with the AGS-17s. They were at company level for a while, then got consolidated into a platoon at battalion level at some point in the 80s. Will just be easier game-wise if they're all together. I'd say do whatever is easiest for you, I don't think you'd be "wrong" either way.

Hope that helps,
Max

Hi Andy Rix,

I don't know of any concrete Soviet plans for an operation like that. However, I would find it very hard to believe that a Northern Norway operation wasn't planned for. Such an operation would have 2 strategic purposes:

1) Defensive: removing the threat of NATO air and naval bases so close to the Kola Peninsula, the main naval and naval aviation base for the Northern Fleet.

2) Offensive: To prevent NATO from sustaining a war of any duration, they would have to close off the Atlantic to NATO convoys (just like in Red Storm Rising). Having NATO air and naval bases operational in Northern Norway would be a significant hindrance to any Northern Fleet naval assets trying to sortie into the Atlantic. Likewise, basing Soviet Naval Aviation units in Norwegian airfields would greatly extend their range into the Atlantic and shorten the distance damaged or low fuel planes would have to fly, likely increasing their sortie rate.

Furthermore, the Soviets were very aware of the peculiarities and challenges of Arctic warfare. Their World War 2 operations in the Petsamo/Kirkenes campaign were widely studied, and they understood that it was not just about cold weather training, but how do you coordinate logistics, artillery, air support, etc in the very unique Arctic environment. Even in the summer, this is not ideal terrain for military operations,and logistics will be extremely challenging.

I can't really speak to the other NATO countries, but the Americans certainly didn't appreciate "Arctic warfare" to the extent of the Soviets during this time period (and not much has changed in that regard). Cold weather training was about the extent of American preparation, no real appreciation of and preparation for the higher level unique complexities like Arctic logistics.

I imagine the Scandinavian countries were well aware, considering they live in the environment. Perhaps the Canadians to some extent? But everything I've read about their CAST preparations (or lack thereof) make it seem like most anticipated it would be a debacle; accordingly in the late 80s they re-purposed their CAST brigade to a more conventional commitment alongside the 4CMBG in Germany.

Don't know much about the British, but their Commandos did train extensively in Norway on a very frequent basis, so I would guess they'd rate rather highly compared to their American and Canadian cousins.

Hi UsmanK,

Thank you for the information on the Machine Gun platoons. It is interesting that the DShB foot companies only one the platoon for a short amount of time, but the BMD companies kept theirs. Again, I wonder why?

And thank you for the information on the Motor Rifle companies. Do you know if the MTLB mounted units used them? For example, all three Motor Rifle Regiments of the 131st Motor Rifle Division were mounted in MTLB, while only one regiment of the 45th and 111th Motor Rifle Divisions were in MTLB, the rest were in trucks (or GT-T tractors in the winter). So the "truck" regiments definitely didn't have them, but I wonder about the MTLB regiments.

Also, do you have any information on the composition of the 77th Guards Motor Rifle Division before it was transferred to the Navy in 1989?

Thanks!
-Max

Hi UsmanK,

Also thought of another question in addition to the above.

For a VDV BMD regiment, is this the correct organization?

-Regt HQ: various BMD-1ksh and BTR-D

-x3 Battalion
-HQ: x1 BMD-1Ksh
-x3 company: x10 BMD
-Anti-air platoon: SA-7/14
-AGS platoon: x6 AGS-17, x3 BTR-D
-Mortar battery: x8 2S9

-Engineer company
-Recon company: x10 BMD
-Spetsnaz platoon
-Anti-tank battery: x6 BTR-RD
-x2 Anti-air battery: x6 BTR-ZD, x6 SA-7/14

Thanks!
Max

Hello, MadMax17!

As for the machine-gun platoon in DSHB – as I recall, a company at BMD were both counter-terrorism units. Maybe it has something to do with it.

As for the divisions on MTLB – I have detailed information is not available. There are vague information that the machine-gun platoon is being in divisions on MTLB, but when – no information.

1988
77 Guards Motorized Rifle div. (Arkhangelsk)
212 Tank Regiment,
215 Guards Motorised Regiment
218 Guards. MR
481 MR
51 Guards. Artillery Regiment,
1027 anti-aircraft missile regiment

A more correct organization:
-Regt HQ: various BMD-1k, BMD-1ksh and BTR-D

-x3 Battalion
-HQ: x1 BMD-1Ksh,
-x3 company: x9 BMD, 1 BMD-1k (command plt) , 1 BTR-D (command plt)
-Signal platoon: 1 BTR-D, 1 BMD-1K, 1 BMD-1ksh
-Anti-air platoon: SA-7/14

-Regimental artillery:
– x1 SPG division
– HQ: x2 1v119 Reostat
– Logistical platoon: x1 BTRD
-x3 battery: 6 2s9, x2 1v119 Reostat
-x1 AT battery: x6 BTR-RD (?)
-x1 AA battery: x6 BTR-ZD, x6 SA-7/14 (?)

-Recon company: x6 BMD-1, x1 BMD-1ksh
-Engineer company
-Signal company: 2 BMD-1k, 2 BMD-1ksh.
-Logistical company
etc.

Hi UsmanK,

Thanks for the information on the DShB and MTLB machine gun platoons, interesting.

For the 77th Guards Motor Rifle Division, does it say what the motor rifle regiments were equipped with? Trucks, BTR, MTLB etc? I know when they went to the Navy they got re-equipped with very new equipment, but i am interested in what they had in the early 1980s.

Thank you for the info on the VDV regiment, a few questions:

1) So they didnt use the AGS-17 like the DShB and motor rifle troops? I'm not seeing them in your list

2) What is an SPG division?

3) Why is there a question mark on the AT battery? I have seen some lists that say 9P148 (BRDM with AT-5), and some that have the BTR-RD (BTR-D with 9P135M launcher for AT-4/5)

Thanks!
Max

Hello, MadMax17!

In the 77th Division, alas, no information was found. The only thing I can say they were SAM Osa.

1. AGS such was not the VDV Regiment. But then I could be wrong
2. It can be translated as self-propelled artillery battalion (Samochodny artilleryisky divizion on Russian).
3. It seems like BTR-RD.

Hi UsmanK,

Ok, I understand on the 77th, thanks.

1) Interesting that the VDV did not use the AGS-17. Do you know if the Naval Infantry did?

2) Ok, so that's not a separate organization, just the name of the regimental artillery?

3) Ok, thanks; do you know when these BTR-RD vehicles came into service?

4) Was the anti-air platoon in each battalion mounted in vehicles? If so, what kind of vehicles?

Thanks!
-Max

Hello, MadMax17!

1. That is honest, neither one nor the other question I do not know the answer. That's the idea of AGS is common thing, and could well be in the VDV and the Nav. Inf., but they were built in there the structure – I do not know.

2. Separate. Actually, this a battalion with 2C9:
HQ: x2 1v119 Reostat
Logistical platoon: x1 BTRD
3 battery – each 6 2s9 and 2 1v119 Reostat

Besides him, the regimental artillery includes AT battery and AD battery.

3. 1979.

4. They like "on leg". Or, may be, on GaZ-66

Hi MadMax

Had insomnia tonight so thought I would investigate some of this:

on BMDs

History of Soviet Airborne Forces DM Glanz pp 364 He quotes the key US Army references.

1978 AB Div @ 126 BMD 1980 @ 127 BMD 1982 @ 330BMD 78 Orbat suggests 1 Bn per Regiment, 1980 Orbat suggests 1 Regiment per Div 1982 suggests all Regiments, this repeated through to 89

The Recce Coy is associated with non BMD equipped Regiments in the 1980 Orbat and does not appear in the 1978 Orbat (Which had 1 BMD Bn in each Regt) or the 1982 Orbat (Which is all BMD)

Janes Armour and Artillery can be read as BTR D prod about 1600 BMD about 1600, 1990 Mil Balance has Soviet Union 3000 BMD all types so BMD1/2/3 & BTR-D earlier versions don't break out BMD numbers. Total prod fully equips 10 Divisions (ish) but does not account for the DShV elements. So you could be looking at different equipment levels depending on where you are.

My guess is you are looking at organisational patterns that changed both through time and across geography

The Other interesting bit of information was the 4th Naval Infantry Battalion in a Naval infantry regiment being equipped as an Army DShV battalion with an Air Assault Role (Isby 10 Million Bayonets Ch 7). I assume air lift would come from Front if Fleet was subordinate in a coastal operation.

I have seen other material that alludes to this but until I read that had never seen it so explicitly expressed.

It would be interesting to compare source lists at some time.

Hi UsmanK and Andy,

Great stuff, thanks! Very interesting about the BMD numbers progression through the 1980s.

Regarding the Naval Infantry regiment in the air assault role; I was under the impression that this was just training, rather than re-equipping? I have that Isby book somewhere in the house, can't find it though. Does he say they were receiving BMDs, etc like a DShB battalion?

Hi Fallout 2077,

So in going back and looking at some sources, the only thing I can find regarding the air defense section consolidation was from the MSH GSFG order of battle (on the MSH website), not sure who specifically compiled it or what sources they used. Everything else in it seems to jive well with other sources, so I'm inclined to believe it.

The relevant exerpts:

"From 1985 Infantry AA platoons were reassigned to Regimental AA Battalions as these formed… (by 1990 about 32% of MRR had transferred these). Also prior to 1975 these are actually a 3 SAM launcher squad in each company rather than a consolidated platoon… Note some units had these AA Squads possibly as early as 1968 when the Strela-M first appeared."

So, according to this, after 1975 the AA platoon at battalion level was formed for Motor Rifle Regiments… Doesn't say anything about other types of battalions/regiments. Then, after about 1985, these were consolidated into AA battalion at Regimental level. It says this comprised:

-1 x AAA Missile/Artillery Battery:
-1 Plt 2S6M Tunguska
-1 Plt SA-13
-1 AA Missile Battery: all the SA-7/14/16/18 teams (so 27 for an MRR I think)

With a note that says: "Introduction of the Tunguska appears very slow so many units retained the ZSU-23-4 up to and beyond 1985. By 1985, probably no more than 3 MRRs in the entire GSFG may have had the new AA Battalions and Tunguskas, but after this date introduction of Tunguskas may have become more rapid regardless of formation of the above battalions or the retention of the older AA batteries in Regiments."

Again, don't know the validity of all this, but I'm inclined to believe it, as their other info has been about 95% correct in my research.

MadMax17 you might find this of interest if you have not already seen it
PDF link

MadMax17, I have a question for you, its a bit off topic but I didn't want to start a new topic for just this.

I saw your post elsewhere talking about the introductions of tanks to the GSFG, as you noted and from other sores I have found, the T-80B was only introduced in November/December 1982 to the 1st Guards Tank Army. By Able Archer 1983(November) that would be about a year since first introduction of the T-80B, meaning most of the tanks were still the T-62.

In the 8th Guards Army they only had T-62s except for the 27 Guards Motor Rifle Division which had moved from 1GTA to 8GA in mid 1983, it kept its T-80B tanks. So what I want to know is, what model of T-62 was being fielded in late 83 in the GSFG?

I would assume the T-62 Obr.1975(with KTD-1/2 laser rangefinder) would be the standard but the T-62D(with the Drozd active protection system) and T-62M(fully modernized overhaul) were both introduced in 1983.

The T-62 was out of production since 1975 so this means all of these modifications would be done to existing vehicles rather than new vehicles being delivered, this means it would be quicker to do updates to the vehicles, do you think its possible that some T-62D o T-62Ms were in the 8th Guards Army or what do you think would have been the model of T-62 in use in late 1983?

Thanks.

Max- I believe the SPG refers to self propelled artillery assets.