"GQ3 - aerial torpedo attack example" Topic

(Tried posting to the GQ3 forum but it seems to be defunct)

Is there a worked example of how to do an aerial tropedo attack in GQ3? I'm having a terrible time piecing the rules together with the play sequence.

In the final air phase when the torpedos are dropped, I'm pretty confused about how to go about it. I'll ask my questions one at a time for the sake of clarity (I hope).

It says you calculate the torpedo drop distance based on the AA. How do you calculate the AA (from what position of the planes) for this?

Thanks.

See version 3.3 rule 2.9 for AA fire. Long range is out to 6000 yrds and level 4 or higher. Close range AA is out to 2500 yds and up to Level 3.

AA is resolved after the attacking formation's movement is completed.

See rule 2.11 for procedure on drop distances and altitudes. (basically they refer you to the aircraft charts)

So you use the AA at the end of the movement to tell you how to do the movement (where to drop the torpedoes)? How does that work?

(why I'm looking for a worked example)

Our apologies for your not receiving an answer to your questions on our forums. However they are not "defunct".

I just checked and there was a question and answer posed Feb. 3rd 2017.

This said, if you don't receive a satisfactory answer here I will notify the GQ3 author and lead playtest manager (Lonnie and Mike) to post a look out for your question.

Again our apologies.

Fair winds,
ODGW Kenny

GQ3.3
2.11.1 Aerial Torpedo Drops

2

Roll a D12 for each flight and cross-reference the result with the column on the Torpedo Bomber DROP table corresponding to the amount of AA fire encountered. The distance listed is the flight's minimum drop range.

Move each flight as desired, pausing to place a Velcro strip or piece of tape to mark the flight's drop position. The drop can be made at any point in a flight's movement, provided it is not less than the flight's minimum drop range from the target. Complete the remainder of the flight's movement for the Air Phase.

And how do you calculate the AA? From the plane's position at the start of the phase? Or based on what they encountered throughout the phase (which I think is what is normally done)?

The rules are not real specific (IMO) on how this is handled. I play it that if the bomber air formation is in range but has not crossed over its target ship they are shot at by any AA that reaches them. On the next air phase as they cross over the target, I use it as the aim point for the screen and its own AA to determine further hits on the air formation and the CRT for its bombing attack. If it's still in some screening vessel's AA range at the end of the survivors move, they are subject to that AA fire too.
For torpedo planes it's similar but I use an aim point 2500 yds from the target. Since that is the furthest they can drop their torps. I figure that is a good spot to figure the AA factor. If the CRT result is they drop it closer, then they have to continue their move to that range & make the drop before they do any change in direction or finish their movement. Again, if they end their move in AA range of the screen, the survivors get shot at by those screening vessels.
Yeah, AA is murderous, especially if the plane type is really slow and the screen is spread out. But if multiple formations attack, then the AA has to be divided up giving each formation a better chance at hitting and surviving.

Thanks Bob. It's the torpedo plane AA that has me real confused. It seems like what you need to do is move the planes, compute the AA, resolve the AA, then go back along their path and drop torpedoes for the ones that survive. That seems like a headache.

@believeit….yes that is how the rules read. Here's the rub, for the TBs what if the AA amt is less at their end point past the target than it would be had they ended movement before the target at launch range?
With the way we handle it, they get the effect of AA prior to launch. Then at their end point they can be shot at by any of the screen (and target opposite side AA) within range that did not take part in the launch point shooting.

However you play it, as long as the game'rs agree on a method and it's played consistently is all I am concerned about.

Thanks Bob. My first goal at this point is to understand it. I think I do, but am not sure.

I thought the rules were that the AA tallies are from the maximum they would face along their path rather than at the end point? So, if you fly through the close range of an escorting battleship even though you don't start or end there you feel the effect of the close range.

The rule as written is that the total of the long range AA of any ships (other than the target ship) that the TB flight's path crosses, plus the short range AA of the target ship (assuming the TB flight path closes under 2500yds of the target) is added together to get the AA value for the Torpedo Bomber Drop table. Keep in mind, this defines the MINIMUM range that a TB flight may drop its 3 torpedoes (each flight represents 3 aircraft). You can drop at any range beyond that minimum. And, in some cases, you may want to. Example: A flight of Kates is closing on the Wasp (a late war Essex class carrier). Along its flight path 2 Cleveland class CLs (with 8 long range AA each) and the Indiana (with 13 long range AA) plus Wasp's 21 short range AA. That's a total of 50 AA. Which means, short of some good die rolling, you're going to dropping your fish at a good distance out. And that's assuming you survive the attack. Since AA occurs BEFORE the torpedo drop. Looking at the AA table, you'd have exactly a 1 in 12 chance of surviving. So if you want to carry that attack, you'd be best off dropping beyond the 2500yd mark (2500yds being the max range of short range AA). In the above case, that would drop the AA values to the long range values of the supporting and target ships (or 37). Not much much better, but at least you'd have a 2 in 12 chance of surviving to make your drop. Finally, keep in mind the MAXIMUM speed that you can make while making your run (noted on the bottom of the Torpedo Bomber Drop table).

I recall in game (late war) we had a 10 flight attack of Kates (30 planes) coming in on ONE Essex class carrier. After going through the rings upon rings of supporting ships, there was exactly 2 flights left. And those 2 were splashed trying to close below 2500yds.

Well, no. The rule as written is that AA fire is resolved after movement is completed, using the closest range reached during the Air Phase (for AA fire), and that the column on the Torpedo Bomber Drop table corresponds to the amount of AA fire encountered.

I don't see any other way to resolve it than moving the planes, doing the AA, then backtracking the survivors on their flight path up to their targets.

Hold on @believe it. I see Charlie12 is correct. (and I need to revise how I was doing aerial attacks and AA). The first 2 sentences of 2.9 apply. I think the methodology is more complex but can be handled relatively easily as follows:

For each attacking Flight (or perhaps the formation if the flights are close enough together), place a string along its flight path from start to finish. Then determine how much of each AA factor each ship in range along any part of the flight path will use on each Flight. This determines the TB drop minimum range. If you choose to launch torps further than 2500 yds or minimum you can but like Charlie12 said and 2.11.1 (2), the closest minimum drop is determined by the chart.

I think I was concentrating on 2.11 and not really reading 2.9 properly. Thanks Charlie12 for the explanation.

Um. I was quoting 2.9.

Well, no. The rule as written is that AA fire is resolved after movement is completed, using the closest range reached during the Air Phase (for AA fire), and that the column on the Torpedo Bomber Drop table corresponds to the amount of AA fire encountered.

Yes and no. The total AA is that encountered during the ENTIRE flight path during your attack, not just that at the end of the run.

You said you were quoting the rules as written. You wrote, in case you have forgotten: "The rule as written is that the total of the long range AA of any ships (other than the target ship) that the TB flight's path crosses, plus the short range AA of the target ship (assuming the TB flight path closes under 2500yds of the target) is added together to get the AA value for the Torpedo Bomber Drop table." Where are they written that way?

Sec 2.9 (on page 2-7): "AA fire is resolved after movement is completed, using the closest range reached during the Air Phase."

AA fire is resolved after movement is completed, using the closest range reached during the Air Phase.

Exactly. You take the CLOSEST RANGE along your ENTIRE flight path. Example: I have a hot flight (moves 8000yds a phase) start out 3000yds off the starboard side of Indiana. It moves straight through and OVER the Indiana and ends 5000yds off her port side. By your interpretation, the Indiana would not have a shot. Which is gamey and the height of rules lawyering. Sometimes a good dose of common sense is needed.

In any case, my interpretation is the one my group plays. Which happens to include the AUTHOR of GQ3.3….

Wow. By my interpretation? You can't read?

Where have I said anything other than what the rules as written state? Feel free to quote.

You said, "The rule as written is that the total of the long range AA of any ships (other than the target ship) that the TB flight's path crosses," and then this "You take the CLOSEST RANGE along your ENTIRE flight path." Pick one. It can't be both.

Pick one. It can't be both.

Actually, it is both. You take the TOTAL of ALL the AA values along the fight path, taking the value when passing closest to the ship in question. Buckeyebob, has it right.