"Retreat of the 85e at Waterloo" Topic

G'Day Gents

Does anyone know which British skirmishers or the British regiment the 85e encountered during their withdrawal…or which British cavalry regiment unsuccessfully charged their colonne vuide / colonne de retraite when retiring from the field of battle?

Next…

Does anyone in their rules…use "croise la baionnette" to stop a routing body of troops from penetrating their formation?

Best Regards
Art

Art, which account is the above in?

G'Day Whirlwind

It belongs to Capitaine de grenadiers au 85e de ligne, ex-colonel de la 4e légion de la Garde nationale de Paris.

But do not confuse this with the Scot Greys charge on the 85e square earlier on in the Battle. The 85e was the appui for the massed battery…and when the Scot Greys bounced off the 85e they went upon the division of the massed battery that was ordered to move by Ruty.

As for "croise la baionnette" to stop a routing body of troops from penetrating their formation. That got me to wondering from reading the memories of Cpl Candler and his experience at Waterloo

Best Regards
Art

Okay, I found a copy here: 1789-1815.com/chapuis.htm

Is it partial, Art?

Anyway, I have translated it for anyone interested:

Note on the 85th Line during the Campaign of 1815, by Chapuis, Captain of Grenadiers of the 85th Line, ex-Colonel of the 4th Legion of the Paris National Guard

The 85th Regiment of the Line, along with the 95th Line, formed the 12th Brigade (General Brue) of the 4th Division (General Durutte) of the 1st Corps (Gen Drouet d'Erlon).
As you have said, this regiment was made up of only two batalions, forming together a total number of nearly 900 men; but what you don't know is that these same men were commanded by the brave Colonel Masson, who came from the 3rd Regiment of Tirailleurs of the Guard a few days before the beginning of the campaign, were tried and tested soldiers, resolved to fight until the last. Most of them left the English pontoons (hulks?) at the peace of 1814, where they had endured a long and evil punishment, they hoped for the moment where they would find themselves face-to-face with their tormentors.
If at Waterloo they were to find just vengeance for the cruel agony which they had endured, it was because Destiny did not wish it; for, during the fight, their conduct was admirable: they nearly all succumbed but, whilst falling, their last words indicated that they understood that the fight was a fight to the death. In no other time or place did the soldiers of the 85th show more courage.
Why did Fate paralyze (prevent?) these grand efforts and noble devotion.
On the 17th, the 4th Division, left Wagnelé to rejoin the three other divisions of 1st Corps, which had been directed on the evening of the 16th towards Quatre Bras. This junction could not take place, as the 4th Division had received the order to remain behind the Emperor's Headquarters.
Delayed in our march by the rain, the mud and the numerous columns which were all advancing towards the same point. We arrived so late at the position we had been designated that it was impossible for the soldiers to get themselves shelter from the bad weather.
Battered by continuous rain, without fire, the night was very cruel; so each of us were content with the arrival of the day; but the call for us to go once again under arms, proved to us, by the mournful silence which reigned in the ranks, that we had lost our energy and that some hours of rest would be needed for us to be in a fit state before the enemy.
A halt had been ordered, (where) we took up the position which you have indicated in your narrative.

All that you have said on this subject Director is perfectly correct, I will only add that by leaving this telegraph position to join the three other divisions of 1st Corps, the officers of the 85th had great difficulty in preventing the soldiers from shouting "Vive L'Empereur!" when they passed in front of him. So as not to reveal to the enemy, whom we were approaching, the place which he occupied, the order had been given to keep the utmost silence while passing (him); so our soldiers greatly regretted that they were not able to express the sentiments they had, as this was the first time that the majority of the 85th were able to see the great captain for whom they had so much admiration and devotion…

Carrying arms whilst all these men were fighting hand-to-hand, the fire of the 85th had ceased as if they were merely executing an exercise.
The rolling drums, like a wave of a wand to bring the officers to their place in battle, clearly demonstrated the value of our colonel and how much we could count on him. With a man of less proven courage, in pace of strong resistance we might have been crushed, as the divisions of the 1st Corps were flung back in the greatest disorder and our soldiers had to cross bayonets to stop all the demoralized men from destroying the elements of our force which we had saved, which were lost in the other regiments by the mistakes which had been made. At this moment, where an army corps searches for its salvation in a hasty retreat, whilst a handful of soldiers successfully face the dangers which surround them, made for the 85th one of those beautiful moments which make an invincible regiment and place it high in the opinion of the army, so that all envy its spirit and look to emulate it.
This fine moment we owed to two worthy leaders, Colonel Masson and our Brigadier, Brue. The latter had followed with the 95th, the second regiment of his brigade, the attacking movement of the 4th Division. During the retrograde movement, he entered our square at the moment when we were about to start firing and he contributed powerfully to the great success which we had just obtained by his great energy.
With two men of the calibre of those I have named, with a goodly number of the soldiers who had recently come out of the English pontoons one can well believe that they had courage, devotion and means of resistance in a square which was small in number, but as solid as the living redoubt of Marengo…
Our brigadier understood that in the critical state in which the 1st Corps found itself, there was an overbearing necessity that the only regiment that remained intact should not go back and it refused on two different occasions to obey the order of General Durutte to rejoin the division.
Established next to the battery, and weapons in hand, during the many hours the 85th suffered such losses that a grenadier company lost22 killed or wounded.
When seeing these men fall horribly mutilated by bullets, one might think that the morale of those who remained would be shaken, but not one weakened.
Admirably led, our soldiers always lived up to the courage of which our general and our colonel gave such a fine example. So, in these painful hours, there were acts of such steadiness that one wouldn't credit such heroism and selflessness…
The English skirmishers, and afterwards the Prussian skirmishers, having advanced close enough to disquiet us, the companies of our regiment were sent against them one after the other. The turn of the grenadier company which I commanded came and we marched halfway to the enemy. We employed all of our willpower and energy to fulfil the mission entrusted to us. I believe that we did not fail and that if our efforts were not crowned by success, it was because we needed something more than courage, since we did all that was humanly possible to do, and the company of grenadiers showed itself to do as well as skirmishers as they had been under the cannon (fire).
Charged by the enemy cavalry at the end of the day, it succumbed in almost its entirety, and what had been spared by ball or bullet was sabred and trodden under the feet of the horses…
So I can tell you Director, about these moments and those which followed them, is foreign to the regiment of which I was part. It will suffice for you to know, I think , that two months after this wretched and fatal day of the 18th, I rejoined the army on the other side of the Loire, to assist the disbanding of the 85th, one of the regiments of Italy, Egypt and the famous 3rd Corps, which became for the campaign of Russia the 1st Corps of the Grand Armée, commanded since the formation of the camp of Boulogne in 1803 until 1814 by Marshal Davout; a regiment whose good example was passed on from generation to generation, which passed quickly, for this existence was short in the 85th; the regiment formed a family so united that its separation could not be made without the shedding of many tears, tears forgiveable to soldiers who, in good and bad fortune had learned to esteem and love each other.

With my sincerest regards Director.

Paris, 1st February 1838

Does anyone know which British skirmishers or the British regiment the 85e encountered during their withdrawal…or which British cavalry regiment unsuccessfully charged their colonne vuide / colonne de retraite when retiring from the field of battle?

Given Durutte's movements during the battle, I reckon the skirmishers would probably be Nassauers from Saxe-Weimar's Brigade. The cavalry, perhaps 12th (Prince of Wales') Light Dragoons from Vandeleur's Brigade; but more likely 4th NL Light Dragoons or 8th NL Hussars from Ghigny's Brigade.

As for the cavalry which crushed the 85th at the end…Lutzow's Landwehr Cavalry, perhaps?

Does anyone in their rules…use "croise la baionnette" to stop a routing body of troops from penetrating their formation?

IIRC, Neil Thomas' rules sort of assume this – retreating units can't interpenetrate units to the rear and are eliminated instead, which I suppose simulates this quite well. Most other rules have the unit contacted by the routers disordered by them.

G'Day Whirlwind

I think in the complete version…it is the Prussian cavalry that finally destroy the regiment…

Your translator is better than most…did you use google translator?

I remember a few years ago…we had to do command and staff slides in French…the amount of slides that had to be translated was mind boggling…so we massed produced everything with google translator…then we would go back and correct the mistakes made by the translator…even after all the proof reading there was always hidden mistakes…which were always caught by those in the class…

Military Pedagogy in French is always easy…we tell the students we purposely threw in mistakes so they could correct them… ;-)

Bien…I once had the complete document that Chapuis wrote…as well as many others…but it was lost in Afghanistan…mortar fire taught me to back everything up…

Again thanks for your assistance…

The problem I see with infantry stopping routing infantry from breaking their rank is…even better disciplined units could be swept away…so it comes down to if the commanders gives the order to "croise la baionnette"…

Therefore do you make it a random roll for all…with no modifiers?

Best Regards
Art

I don't know about the complete version but in his letter for la sentinelle …

"Je crois que nous n'y manquâmes point, et que si la réussite ne couronna pas nos efforts, c'est qu'il fallait autre chose que du courage, puisque nous fîmes tout ce qu'il était humainement possible de faire, et que la compagnie de grenadiers se montra aussi bien en tirailleurs qu'elle avait été remarquable sous le canon.
Chargée à la fin de la journée par la cavalerie ennemie, elle succomba presque toute entière, et ce que le boulet ou la balle avait épargné, fut sabré et foulé aux pieds des chevaux."

Here Chapuis' complete account, published in 1863:

link

But the question is…

Were they Allies…British…or Prussians?

Oli…thanks I have just two minutes to say thank you !!!!

Best Regards ;-)
Art

In the complete account, Chapuis doesn't say either which kind of enemy cavalry was cutting down his grenadiers.

G'Day Oli

after going back to it…

Well…

Do you know what that is called…when memory starts to fail…and you remember things that were not…

OLD AGE ;-(

Best Regards
Art

G'Day Oli…

He is referring to his grenadiers isn't he…en tirailleur

Good catch…or perhaps I need to be painted stupid…

Best Regards
Art

Chapuis also wrote a similar account about the battle of Kulm

G'Day Hans-karl

Could I ask you to send it to me at my email account…or how I could download it…thanks…

I have to send both you and Oli…photos of men (where I am at) marching and singing to:

Au pas camarade, au pas camarade

J'aime l'oignon frît à l'huile,
J'aime l'oignon quand il est bon,
J'aime l'oignon frît à l'huile,
J'aime l'oignon, j'aime l'oignon.
------------------
(refrain)
Au pas camarade, au pas camarade,
Au pas, au pas, au pas.
Au pas camarade, au pas camarade,
Au pas, au pas, au pas.
------------------
Un seul oignon frît à l'huile,
Un seul oignon nous change en lion,
Un seul oignon frît à l'huile
un seul oignon nous change en lion.
------------------
(refrain)
------------------
Mais pas d'oignons aux Autrichiens,
Non pas d'oignons à tous ces chiens,
Mais pas d'oignons aux Autrichiens,
Non pas d'oignons, non pas d'oignons.
------------------
(refrain)
------------------
Aimons l'oignon frît à l'huile,
Aimons l'oignon car il est bon,
Aimons l'oignon frît à l'huile,
Aimons l'oignon, aimons l'oignon
------------------
(refrain)

Best Regards,
Art

@Art,

The translation is mine, with a couple of words and phrases checked from the internet.

I agree that the cavalry that rode down the 85th at the end was most probably Prussian – I slightly favour troops from Lutzow rather than von Roder, just based on their positions.

You are correct about the behaviour of troops "routed into"; I wonder if the key thing is if the troops are trained and steady, they will do something like that and be okay, if raw or shaken they are more likely to be caught up in the flight.

G'Day Whirlwind

But at the same time…it would also seem that formations were caught off guard…as if the fleeing soldiers seeking protection caused confusion and "crowding" (when one rank is pushed into another) within the ranks…

Not quite the same…that we are discussing…but…

As an example…in the execution of a passage of lines…

"while the first line is passing, the flanks of the platoons of the second line ought to be well covered or guarded by officers, or steady non-commissioned officers or soldiers, lest the first line should pass confusedly, and throw the second into disorder."

Best Regards
Art

good picture about Culm

link

and the work of Chapuis

link

One of the most interesting threads from a while…!

Thanks!.

Amicalement
Armand

Yes, very interesting, and shows quite clearly how the French dissolved into skirmish through the day. How many rules really manage this I wonder.

please bear in mind, the foreground, columns , guns , skirmishers – are Allied troops

Interesting image of C(K)ulm.

The Russian columns in the foreground presumably represent battalions of four companies each in two ranks of approximately 30 files.

Do we know much about the artist? I am wondering whether the battalion representations are notional or based upon research on field strengths.

also – it shows well in my view the distance and depth of a napoleonic battle field – alas I cannot say anything about the artist.