"Italian Dovunque 47mm AT portee?" Topic

Both Rapid Fire supplements on North Africa show them as part of the Italian force and have seen a few historical references but can not find a photo of one.

Anyone have a good reference and photo?

Thanks

my 47mm are on what i have…official TOE's differs a lot from the reality of Regio Esercito in Western Desert

Thank you Italwars. First is definitely a 47 but believe second may be a 65/17 mounted on a captured Morris CS8 link

And you no doubt are very correct that official TOE's and what was actually used were probably very different!

If you do Rapid Fire in 6mm, you could cobble your own up using link and link . You'd really have to hack the Morris because it comes as a one-piece casting.

Jim

Jim;

Actually ordered 4 Dovunque 35 trucks from Gaming Models since they seem to be the only ones doing that truck without a cast on cargo cover. Will put FOW 47mm in back. Was hoping to get a better idea how it was fixed in the bed. Another, more pricey solution was to take the FOW Dovunque mounting the 20mm AA gun and grind down the pedestal for the 20mm mount but makes it very pricey.

May have to look into Morris castings and do the same for the 65/17 vehicle.

Marc

If you do … 6mm, you could cobble your own up using link and link . You'd really have to hack the Morris because it comes as a one-piece casting.

But the OP asks for the 47mm on a Dovunque, not a captured Morris.

So perhaps the better combination for kit-bashing would be link and link .

However, the bigger question is/was, was such a conversion done / used?

The 65mm howitzer on the Morris was a portee modification done in some numbers. They were a workshop project, and there were several "mobile batteries" with these guns that saw action.

While it is true that Italian units often varied from the "authorized" TOEs, the Italian army in general had a lot of soldiers with cameras, and a lot of diarists. The Italians are a very literate people. If such conversions were made, it is most likely there would be some documentary evidence.

The pic provided by ITALWARS seems to show a 47mm Breda gun carried in the bed of a medium or heavy truck (looks like a Fiat SPA-38 to me). It was fairly common for the Italians to carry things in the bed of their trucks, whether light guns, or small vehicles (up to and including light tanks). There is no indication from the pic that this was a proper portee mount, modified to provide for firing while carried. (Portee conversions on the Fiat SPA-38 that I've seen seem to have had the side panels of the bed removed or with a fold-down mod.)

There were portee mounts constructed on the Dovunque (SPA-35) chassis. But as far as I've ever seen it was just done with the 20mm autocannon.

So … back to the original question. Anyone have refs or pics of a Dovunque 47mm portee? I too would be interested to see it.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

frankly…i have just had a look on some of my various books , some vintage ones, and still did'nt find evidence on that combination..i must say WW2 i'm not an expert on WW2 also if i like to play it..meanwhile i can offer a small clue..if you're referring to the first Italian reinforcments sent to Western Desert (8th Bersaglieri for ex..)together with the token but well disguised first micro uits of DAK..the Dovunque trus was a rarity..from their war memories i read that they were very sorry that a full convoy with specalised vehicles…among them "the precious Dovunque" which are mentioned ,,was lost due to British torpedo attacks..so they had to make do with clumsy, dated Breda other few trucks spared from the previous débacle and canibalised in the depots of Bengasi ecc…

Just found a 1996 article on a specialised magazine by "Bruno Benvenuti" who was the "expert" on Italian Army WW2 equipments..the article deal exactly on Italian portee on Western Desert..with history and employment of every single vehicle…with plenty of picts and diagrams..i cam confirm that..no picts or drawings of that combination..no mentions…at a glance the only ref to 47/32 on portee is the late war set up for one or two AS 37 autocarri and then the specialised "Camionetta Sahariane" too late on the scene…i suppose , at this point, that RF orbat is wrong..and thanks for adressing us to this search..if somemody is interested in scans of diagrams and picts of that definitive article he can send me an email..maybe, as i'm unable to do it, somebody can, if interested, re-scan it and post it here.in case my mail: ital.wars@libero.it

ITALWARS – thank you for a thoughtful and informative answer! I am most impressed by your quick research. It is for me one of the great joys of this forum to be able to touch on a subject, and find someone who can access information that would have been beyond my reach without a great investment of time and expense (and even then perhaps an unlikely find).

I would be quite interested in that article, but I do not wish to cause you to invest any more of your time or effort. It would be only for the purpose of my own education.

I am quite interested in understanding the Italian experience in WW2, to a depth beyond what is so frequently parroted in US / UK / Russia dominated military fora. So if there are other demands for the information, count me in as an avid 2nd or 3rd reader!

As it is, I am grateful for the information you have already provided. Grazie!

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

no problem…to find infos to offer to other wargamers it's for me a kind of amusing safari…plus i'm always happy to share the results with foreign English speaking people
i have the article over my desk in this moment and to take picts while i childlshy play my new IPhone will be a matter of minutes..feel free to write me ..

Actually this has sort of been fun on a rather obscure topic.

As a follow on I located my copy of Italian Tanks and Fighting Vehicles of World War 2 by Ralph Riccio. There is a short section on truck mounted artillery. Included is this statement:
"The following types were used, but the list is merely illustrative and does not pretend to be all inclusive:

The 47/32 anti-tank gun mounted on the T.L. 37 light desert truck. The gun was mounted with the muzzle facing to the rear."

Alas, no picture of said vehicle. What he does have a picture of, and adding to the mounting of the 20mm, is a 90/53 mounted on the Dovunque chassis. To date I had seen this gun mounted on the Lancia 3 RO but not the Dovunque. This is a proper mounting with the gun on a pedestal, cut down sides and outriggers fitted.

Alas it helps to do more research. The 90/53 is mounted on a Breda truck chassis not the Fiat SpA Dovunque 35 chassis. My apologies.