redcoat | 31 Jan 2017 2:36 a.m. PST |
Hi all, May I please pick your brains? I've been reading that the Treaty of Versailles made Germany unreasonably weak and vulnerable to invasion in the 1920s. The diminutive size of the German army – 100,000 regulars (no conscription) – seems to support this view. But how big were the armies of its neighbours, both in terms of serving regulars and conscript reserves? By neighbours I principally mean France, Belgium, Poland, Czechoslovakia? And where might I find references to these figures in print? Many thanks in advance for any help rendered! |
Mike Target | 31 Jan 2017 3:12 a.m. PST |
Well according to wiki, belgium maintained 12 Divisions for field ops, reducing this to just 4 in the mid 1920s. so thats what 170k down to about 60k. I gather that doesnt include fortress garrison troops, which in the run up to WW1 had been maintained at around another 65k. In WW1 they mobolised 350k or therabouts. 600k in ww2 apparently, though as they were overrun in 18 days I doubt most actually had chance to grab a rifle. dunno if that helps at all. |
Martin Rapier | 31 Jan 2017 4:32 a.m. PST |
In the mid 1920s the Rhineland was occupied by roughly 13,000 British troops (two brigades), approx 8,000 US troops and around 30,000 French and a division or so of Belgians So that is 60,000 soldiers sitting in Germany, never mind the domestic French and Belgian armies. |
Grelber | 31 Jan 2017 5:55 a.m. PST |
You might look in the local public library to see if they have old editions of The Statesmen's Yearbook. It is a reference book with just this sort of information, published annually. The peace treaty with Bulgaria limited them to 25,000 men. Grelber |
Weasel | 31 Jan 2017 10:32 a.m. PST |
The Poles may have been substantial though they were also rebuilding after their invasion of Ukraine and the Soviet invasion of Poland. |
KTravlos | 31 Jan 2017 1:26 p.m. PST |
Correlates of War military personnel numbers in 1000s 1923-1933 Country Year Number in 1000s(so 133=133000) BEL 1923 133 BEL 1924 82 BEL 1925 82 BEL 1926 83 BEL 1927 66 BEL 1928 65 BEL 1929 67 BEL 1930 69 BEL 1931 66 BEL 1932 67 BEL 1933 66 FRN 1923 511 FRN 1924 479 FRN 1925 475 FRN 1926 471 FRN 1927 494 FRN 1928 469 FRN 1929 411 FRN 1930 411 FRN 1931 441 FRN 1932 422 FRN 1933 449 GMY 1923 114 GMY 1924 114 GMY 1925 114 GMY 1926 114 GMY 1927 114 GMY 1928 114 GMY 1929 114 GMY 1930 114 GMY 1931 114 GMY 1932 114 GMY 1933 118 POL 1923 270 POL 1924 278 POL 1925 272 POL 1926 293 POL 1927 265 POL 1928 268 POL 1929 268 POL 1930 263 POL 1931 269 POL 1932 269 POL 1933 269 CZE 1923 150 CZE 1924 150 CZE 1925 125 CZE 1926 120 CZE 1927 127 CZE 1928 130 CZE 1929 130 CZE 1930 130 CZE 1931 129 CZE 1932 118 CZE 1933 122 RUS 1923 2100 RUS 1924 562 RUS 1925 562 RUS 1926 562 RUS 1927 562 RUS 1928 562 RUS 1929 562 RUS 1930 562 RUS 1931 562 RUS 1932 562 RUS 1933 885 LIT 1923 30 LIT 1924 30 LIT 1925 30 LIT 1926 21 LIT 1927 21 LIT 1928 18 LIT 1929 15 LIT 1930 20 LIT 1931 18 LIT 1932 20 LIT 1933 20 DEN 1923 13 DEN 1924 14 DEN 1925 14 DEN 1926 14 DEN 1927 13 DEN 1928 14 DEN 1929 12 DEN 1930 11 DEN 1931 11 DEN 1932 11 DEN 1933 11 NTH 1923 15 NTH 1924 15 NTH 1925 16 NTH 1926 16 NTH 1927 14 NTH 1928 14 NTH 1929 14 NTH 1930 14 NTH 1931 16 NTH 1932 16 NTH 1933 16 |
KTravlos | 31 Jan 2017 1:26 p.m. PST |
these are peacetime armies, not war potential. |
emckinney | 31 Jan 2017 1:51 p.m. PST |
More importantly, the French had thousands upon thousands of artillery pieces of all calibers, over a thousand aircraft, and over a thousand tanks. Since the Germans weren't allowed combat aircraft, their mobility would have been restricted at least as badly as it was in Normandy in 1944. While the German army was limited to 100,000, there were the "private" Freikorps, which were formally independent local and political militias. In fact, many received support and money from the government as a way to get around some of the Versailles limitations. However, the Freikorps lacked any heavy weapons and the French regular army would have gone through them like the U.S. Army went through the Iraqis. I suspect that a French invasion of Germany would have looked like the 1870-71 war: an overwhelming conventional victory in the field, followed by partisan warfare and the siege of one or more major cities. |
Fat Wally | 31 Jan 2017 3:28 p.m. PST |
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Bunkermeister | 31 Jan 2017 4:09 p.m. PST |
If the Germans were limited to 100,000 men how come the list shows 114,000? And who's counting these men? And what penalty was there for having more then 100,000? Mike Bunkermeister Creek Bunker Talk blog |
emckinney | 31 Jan 2017 4:29 p.m. PST |
Those are numbers for all military personnel, not just army. Germany was allowed to maintain a small navy. Enforcement: link |
Daniel S | 31 Jan 2017 4:38 p.m. PST |
The army (Reichsheer) was limited to 100K troops, the remaining 14K belong to the navy (Reichsmarine) which was allowed a maximun strenght of 15K The Reichwehr was under the oversight of the "Military Inter-Allied Commission of Control" until 1927. Some parts of the original Freikorps had been quite well armed with ample supplies of heavy weapons and even in some cases armoured vehicles and aircraft. The Freikorps adventures in the east were probably to some extent carried out to hide prohibited equipment outside Germany but the allies soon acted to repress the eastern Freikorps. A "Black Reichswehr" was establish to provide additional troops in case of an invasion but the presence of the "Military Inter-Allied Commission of Control" limited it's equipment to small arms and light support weapons. As mentioned there were a host of other organisations as well such as Organisation Escherich and the Einwohnerwehr in Bavaria. |
emckinney | 31 Jan 2017 4:44 p.m. PST |
"The Inter-Allied Commissions of Control may establish their organisations at the seat of the central German Government. They shall be entitled as often as they think desirable to proceed to any point whatever in German territory, or to send subcommissions, or to authorise one or more of their members to go, to any such point." See link for all the details on everything. |
Bashytubits | 31 Jan 2017 9:25 p.m. PST |
I really enjoy questions and answers about topics like this. A very interesting discussion. |
KTravlos | 01 Feb 2017 2:27 a.m. PST |
You can look up codebooks, methodology, and sources at the Correlates of War site. |
KTravlos | 01 Feb 2017 2:35 a.m. PST |
A early French invasion scenario and how it plays depends on a lot of factors. Most important why the invasion is happening. I can contemplate scenarios were you have something ala Czechoslovakia 1968, Hungary 1956, France 1871, even Russia 1918. The Why is important because it would greatly affect the reaction of the other major powers (especially the UK and USSR), as well as the reaction of Czechoslovakia and Poland (Poland's reaction in turn tied to the USSR reaction-as well as Lithuania, and the Czechoslovakian's worrying about Hungary). It could spark a Mittleeuropa war. Hmm fun fun scenario: France and its little Entente vs. red USSR and Hungary, and a civil war in Germany. I mean Bela Kuhn partly took power in Hungary by promising to resist the imposition of Trianon, I can see a more cynical "Red" SDP gaining more popularity by presenting itself in a similar light. hrm hrm. Obliviously a lot of this is fiction, but still. |
emckinney | 01 Feb 2017 5:49 p.m. PST |
Well, you have to keep the French mobilization structure in mind. It was the basis for the Soviet Cat A, Cat B, Cat C structure. Even the "active duty" divisions required mobilizing reserve personnel to function. |