"KV tank series turret rotation speed" Topic

From my reading the KV series did not have a hydraulic or electrical drive for the turret and that it was turned manually. Does anyone know if that's correct?

Does anyone know the historic turret rotation speed for the KV series tanks?

Thanks,
Wolfhag

Hi, Wolfhag. While I continue to look for you in my books, I don't think you will find exactly what you asked for. The main reason is that the KV-1 and -2 had manual cranked turret traverse. In Zagola's book on Soviet Armor of WWII, he mentions that trying to traverse the turret on anything but level ground was next to impossible.

Another factor was the add-on armor for the KV-1s. That additional weight was considerable. Add to that the earlier models only had a turret crew of 2 (Commander that also was the loader and the gunner). Initially, a 3rd man was added to operate a rear firing MG..but that didn't work out (think recoil from the gun and where his back was…). The 3rd guy became the loader so the TC could focus on his primary job as commander.

So a suggested answer is a bit of a "how long is a piece of string". (How strong was the guy cranking the turret and did the turret ring allow for smooth traverse in that particular tank.) Since each man is different, it's hard to say. I think the emphasis in Soviet tank improvements (especially after relocation of production facilities) was more towards up armoring and cranking out numbers.

I'll continue to look for more info for you but essentially, Zaloga's book is pretty comprehensive.

Hope this helps.

v/r
Tom

Then, of course, there's the KV-85.

Don't know if it had power traverse, or not.

Wolfhag:

I have seen numbers from 22-28 degrees par second for the KV-1 (1941). The KV-2 monster had no hydraulic traverse but I'm not sure about the KV-1 and KV-1S. I'll keep looking.

Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson.

Have to find my Russian Tanks book but seem to remember reading if a KV-2 is sitting on a hill it's very hard to rotate.

Similar to the above. I find 22 degrees in 30 seconds on the KV-1B with extra armour, but that was on the factory floor, probably using a guy whose sole job was to rotate the turret.

Sounds like it would be quicker to rotate the whole tank and present the more armoured front facing. Just a thought.

I also remember reading if the KV-II was fired with the turret rotated over 15 degrees either side of straight it had a nasty habit of unseating the turret. Wish I could remember the source.

Rod, actually KV-2 had an electric motor in addition to manual traverse. KV-2 turret had major problems when there was a need to turn the turret while the tank was not sitting on a flat surface. KV-2 could fire even with its turret turned to 90 degrees to the hull, but again, at more or less flat surface…

Thanks for the quick responses guys. It looks like you are having the same problem as I am.

This site shows all KV's with electrical and manual traverse:
link

I did find in the Vanguard KV book on page 10 the KV-1 had an electrically powered turret that gave 360 degrees in 70 seconds. So even though the KV-1 has electrical turret rotation it still about 5 degrees per second which is what manual traverse would be for most other vehicles.

I agree about the KV-2 but I have seen pictures of it with the turret turned 90 degrees.

Regarding rotating the entire tank. When attempting to pivot a heavy tank like a KV on anything but a really hard surface will generate lateral forces on the tread that can pop them off or break them. Also the lateral forces will dig the treads into the ground depositing dirt and rocks on top of the treads. When the tank starts to move this stuff will get caught in the rear drive sprocket breaking the tread. All tanks had this problem but tanks with the drive sprocket in the front like German and US tanks we're less vulnerable (unless reversing and turning at the same time).

Looks like right now I'll be using 5 degrees per second for the KV-1, no other data on the KV-2 but it appears to be 2-3 degrees per second.

Wolfhag

Barin 1:

Thanks. I knew the KV-1 had an electric turret motor but I was unsure of the KV-2. From what I have read the electric motors in the KV-1's regularly malfunctioned/burnt-out leaving only manual traversing as an option. Thank you again for clearing that up for me about the KV-2.

Cheers and good gaming.
Rod Robertson..

Regarding rotating the entire tank.

Most tanks could not neutral steer (rotate in place). I haven't checked on the KVs. If you couldn't neutral steer, you had to drive forwards (or reverse). We tend to think of tanks as being in flat, open terrain, but this could take you out from partial cover behind a building, or up a small rise bringing you into view of other tanks, maybe even silhoutting you. Moving forward to bring the gun to bear might put you behind an obstacle, blocking your shot (and incoming fire, which might be good or bad). You might have a drainage ditch on the side of the road. While your tank could easily drive over the ditch perpendicularly, if you're just starting the turn as the tread reaches the ditch, you'll end up crossing at such a shallow angle that the tread will fall in and your tank will end up resting on its belly, immobilized. You can see this in a lot of photos of abandoned tanks.

Of course, having a hedgerow on one side pretty much makes turning to face impossible …

Many tracked vehicle have only one turning radius (hard to believe), others have one turning radius for each gear. This makes fine maneuver particularly annoying.

emckinney,
You bring up a great point of which is why I think you see a lot of tanks knocked out with their turret rotated 90+ degrees.

The German Panther and Tiger hulls could neutral steer. I think the Soviet IS series could but not sure.

However, neutral steering came at a price. With a 45+ ton tank the lateral forces on the treads was tremendous, especially at the front and rear. This could easily pop the treads off the chassis. The Tiger and Panther also have to rev their engines to the limit which could blow the engine. Then if it did work on anything but solid ground all kinds of dirt and rocks would build up on top of the treads and get caught in the drive sprocket or idler. It could also damage the final drive on the earlier Panthers.

I have seen a video of a JgPz VI performing a 360 degree neutral turn on a parade ground at about 10 degrees/second.

Like emckinney said, all kinds of bad things can happen.

Even locking one tread and slewing the tank around can cause damage. The Sherman could not lock one side and pivot turn so had to perform a series of Y turns like a car.

Many players think tanks can pivot around like tops. Not so.

Wolfhag

Yeah Panthers could in theory neutral steer but it was a good way to rip the tracks off and drivers were forbidden to attempt it.

KV-2 was an assault gun and the turret traverse only had to be enough to lay the howitzer on target, keeping the frontal armor facing the enemy: even a regular battle tank should not have to point its main gun 90 degrees to the side, because if you have to do that, something has gone horribly wrong with the plan……

There is a Youtube video of a Museum Panther doing a neutral turn. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't allow that if they thought it would damage the tracks. But it was on a concrete or cobble stone street not a muddy field.