"Pre-Abrams/Bradley US Armor Cav TO&E?" Topic

What is the TO&E of a US Armored Cav Regiment in the late 70s / early 80s just before the arrival of Abrams and Bradleys?

H series (ROAD) TO&E is what you are looking for. I was in a Divisional Cavalry Squadron (battalion) in '78. I believe an ACR had 3 Squadrons (basically the same) and a Howitzer Squadron and an Aviation Squadron.

My Squadron had 3 troops (companies) each with 3 platoons (4 M60s, 5 M113, 2 with Dragon, 2 with TOW). Each troop had a platoon of 3 4.2" mortars as well. The commander was in a M113 and there was an M577 TOC as well.

Yes, all sounds about right.

The 4.2" mortars will be carried in 3 x M106 tracks (mortar version of the M113).

They can be parceled out to the platoons, or kept together at company level, and the commander's discretion.

Some may have still had M551s, instead of the M60s. In that case, there are 6 x M551s in place of the 4 x M60 tanks. Some, very early units only had 3 x M551s each, instead of the full 6 available later.

So it was a mixed platoon of M60 and M113s? Were the TOWs mounted like a M150? Did the 113s carry any dismount infantry?

No Tows, until later.

Then, two M113s got them, and they renamed them M150s.

Later, when they really got sophisticated, they called them M901s, with further techno upgrades for the TOW launcher system.

Yes, they carried troops.

IIRC 4 of the 5 M113s were supposed to be scout carriers, in 2 x sections of 2 each. The 5th one had a full squad of troops, and was designated as an infantry section carrier.

Before they got the M113s, they had M114s (confused yet), which were a bit smaller than the M113s, and purpose built (poorly), for scouting. 5 x M114s in a platoon, instead of the M113s.

Before those, they had M151 Mutts (jeep-like vehicles), and 3 x M48 tanks with 90mm guns, instead of the 3 x M551s. The Mutts carried MGs of various types, and at least one in the platoon usually had a 60mm mortar. There was also a radio Mutt in the group.

A good history of US Cav operations and equipment: link

Includes dates of introduction for various pieces of equipment.

Were the M113s plain vanilla or were they 'Nam style ACAVs?

9 AFVs is a pretty massive platoon, especially with the added mortar tracks. Were those PLs 2LT or 1LTs? Heck, 4 tanks is a platoon in its own right.

Were the tanks a single platoon with two sections each with two tanks?

When I was in 2nd ACR 83-86 we had 2 M113 and 2 M901 for 2 scout sections and each M113 had a M2 and a dragon mounted on the right side of the cupola,and the platoon leader had a M113 with just the M2(not sure about the dragon). We had 4-5 man crews on good day and 3-4 on not so good days, driver,tc and 2-3 dismounts.The LT usually just had a driver, himself and 1 dismount. These dismounts were for local security, LP/OP and a little bit of patrolling but not very far from the vehicles. We didn't have the fancy ACAV kits. The PSG was with the 4 tanks.

Jim

ACAVs weren't in USAREUR

ACAV kits appear to have been shipped only to Vietnam.

I was in E Trp. 2/2 ACR from '79-'81. The Troop had three Plts. each had four M60A1s, later M60A3s, and four M113s. Each of our M113s had a Dragon launcher mounted on the TCs cupola except the Plt. Ldrs. track. There was also a 4.2" Mortar Plt. in each Troop This had three M106s an M113 mounting the mortar.
There was also a Tank Co. with 17 Tanks and a Howitzer Battery with four M109 155mm Howitzers in each squadron along with three Troops.
The Rgt. had three Sqdns. Plus an Air Cav. Sqdn. There was also a Regimental Scout Plt. They seemed to mostly operate with gun jeeps and serve as 'Palace Guards' whenever I saw them.
Good luck with your project.

Hmmm, interesting, Rrobbyrobot.

No 5th infantry squad, or platoon leader's track?

I thought 5 x M113s was always a given, and/or M114s, depending upon the time period, bases upon TO&Es I've seen.

ACRs were [and probably still]are organized differently than standard Mech and Armor units …

ACAV kits appear to have been shipped only to Vietnam.

Our Mech Bn's M113s in the ROK,'84-'85 had the ACAV turret. But no front rectangular armor shield . And of course no armor shields for M60s to be mounted on either side of the troop hatch.

When I returned to the US, assigned to a Mech Heavy Bde in '86. None of our M113s had the ACAV turret. We were told that if deployed to combat we'd be issued those. As stateside units had a lower readiness rating than those in ROK, etc., … And the supply system reflected that overall. And that Mech Heavy Bde was part of the 18th ABN Corps, at that time.

The Howitzer Btty changed to MLRS around 85-86. When we(the tankers) got the M1's, Tank Co went to 3 platoons with 4 tanks and 2 in HQ plt around 84-85.

Jim

Mako,
The fourth track in the platoon was the Plt. Ldrs. track. We had three scout tracks, thus squads, in each Plt. We had no Infantry at all. I can't help what you read. I didn't read it, I lived it.

While I think about it. There were some guys as had stories about operating Sheridans early in their tours. They were old timers and left soon. I never saw an M114 used in any unit.
In the interest of information for the questioner, I served in the 3/5th AirCav. in Ft. Lewis, WA before that. From '77-'79. I was in A Trp. That unit had three Plts. each with four Sheridans, I think. Two M113s, one M106 and four Jeeps. Three of the Jeeps sported M60s in the field. The fourth was the Plt. Ldrs. mount. The M113s were designated to carry an Infantry Squad and a Scout Sqd. each. The three Gun Jeeps were part of the Scout Sec. too. It was a clumsy organization.
The organization Mako referred to was almost certainly earlier in the '70s. I remember reading something about a 'Bastard Cav.' TO&E. But just how that type of unit was made up, I don't know.

The TO&Es I've seen usually list two scout sections of 2 x M113s each, and then either a 5th M113 is listed as an Infantry Squad track, or that of the Platoon Leader.

I do realize though that paper TO&Es may differ from reality, especially when it comes to troop strengths.

I was just curious, since this is the first time I've ever heard of only 4 x M113s in a unit.

I know they went through multiple org changes and revisions too, during the day, trying to sort out what was best, as new vehicles become available. There were certainly a lot of changes to the organizational structure over a very short time.

Thanks for sharing the late 1970s info as well, since that's another structure I haven't read about.

Interesting to see a mix of M113s and "Jeeps". I presume the latter are really the M151 Mutts that were so common during that period.

I was under the impression once the M114s, and/or M113s came on line that the wheeled vehicles were turned in, and never mixed with the tracked vehicles in the same unit.

Mako,
By Jeeps I am talking about M151s. But we just called 'em Jeeps. As for the track and wheel mix. I don't know about all that. It may be that the force was in mid transition when budget cuts hit. Probably wasn't the first time something of the sort has happened.

The fourth track in the platoon was the Plt. Ldrs. track. We had three scout tracks, thus squads, in each Plt. We had no Infantry at all. I can't help what you read. I didn't read it, I lived it.

Yes, that is the way the J Series TO&E had Mech Plts. 4 Tracks – 3 Squad and 1 Plt Ldr's. Mech TO&E went from H to J about mid '80s. The H TO&E has 5 M113s to Plt.

But obviously … the Mech Tracks were full of an INF Sqd.

By Jeeps I am talking about M151s.

Before the TO&E conversion. In the ROK our Mech Bn Sct Plt had 7 M151s. But that may have been unique to US Mech in the ROK ? After the conversion. The Mech Bn Sct Plt had 3 M113s & 3 M901 ITVs. Which is what our Mech Bn's had when I returned stateside to Ft. Benning in '86. And that was the standard at that time, AFAIK …

how many tow rounds did the m150 carry

I found this that says there was stowage for 10 missiles:

This variant consisted of an M113A1 APC with an M233 TOW mounting kit installed. The kit provided for stowage of a TOW launcher, 10 missiles, and the four-man TOW crew inside the vehicle. A ground tripod was also carried to allow dismounted operation of the TOW launcher.

The M233 kit consisted of a pedestal unit mounted on double vertical rails which were pivoted at the vehicle floor under the troop compartment roof hatch. The pedestal unit was raised on the rails and the launch tube was attached and loaded for firing. The vehicle was capable of limited cross country travel while the launcher was in the raised position.

Initial production tests were completed in July 1970, and the mounting kit was reclassified from "Limited Production" (XM-233E1) to "Standard A" (M233) on August 20, 1971.

Yes, it seemed it was a "stop-gap" design to get TOWs mounted on an armored and reliable chassis, the M113. The TOW and gunner were exposed. IIRC. When in firing mode. And there was a "ballistic" cover the gunner could employ. However, they were being phased out or gone when I went on active duty in '79, AFAIK. And very glad to have the M901 ITV in my Mech Co. in '87-'89.

"9 AFVs is a pretty massive platoon"

It was, that's why they changed the Cavalry Troops to 2 x Scout Platoons and 2 x Tank Platoons and added a pure Tank Company.

"ACRs were [and probably still]are organized differently than standard Mech and Armor units …"

They are Stryker Cavalry Regiments now, 2SCR in Germany 3SCR at Ft Hood.

Some of the Divisional Cavalry Squadrons were configured withd 2x Air Troops and 2x Ground Troops.

Mako- there were quite a lot of USAREUR M113s with ACAV kits in 1980s I think. 13th Inf of 8th ID definitely had them, and the Forward Brigade of 1st ID too (not sure of the units). There are contemp photos of them on exercise in the excellent German Tankograd Reforger volumes.

I'm guessing here to be frank, but I think ACAV kits from stores might have been issued to USAREUR units who were at the back of the queue/line to receive M2s, in order to give them a little more protection and firepower while waiting for the big upgrade.

I was in the Scout, Plt. CSC, 2/13th 8th ID from 80-82 and we had no ACAV kits in our unit or in the rest o our Brig 3/68 and 5/68 AR. Or in 3/8 CAV the Div. CAV Squdn. And never saw any in our sister BN of 1/13 INF in Bamholder.

Never saw any in 1st ID from 82-89 either.

When I got back to Germany in 1/11th ACR in March 90 they were starting to mount them on the 1st SGT, Mechanic and Medic M=113's but without the front shield or the M-60 MG shield by the Cargo hatch.

I was surprised to see them. I asked and was told they found a massive stock pile of them in a warehouse in the states and had ordered them and were mounting them.

Oh and our name for them were "Chicken Shields".

Sorry, my oversight- it was the Ironsides NOT the Big Red One!
In the Tankograd Reforger series Vol 3 there's a big photo of a 1st AD M113 with ACAV fit on Exercise Certain Sentinel c20 January 1986. I should have noticed its obvious Blue force ex markings- 1st ID was Orange force in that exercise I believe.

The same volume has a photo of 8th ID ACAV fitted M113s in Exercise Certain Challenge 12 Sept 1988- a column of them from the 1/13th IR with clear unit markings moving near Helmstadt (Franken).

Yea, they most likely start issuing them in Europe in the mid 1980's to the Div. there.

When I was in 2nd ACR 83-86 we had 2 M113 and 2 M901 for 2 scout sections and each M113 had a M2 and a dragon mounted on the right side of the cupola,and the platoon leader had a M113 with just the M2(not sure about the dragon).

Is it true M175 Dragon Mount required 2-5 minutes to switch out either system (HMG or M175 mount)? Those few pictures I saw make it looks like just swinging the M113 cupola.

nikolas93ts

Yes, you just traversed the cupola and there you are.

Yes to mount the actual "M-175 Dragon Mount required 2-5 minutes" as it was not equally waited so it was a bitch to mount. But once it was installed that was it. Nothing more to do. As for the putting the M-47 Dragon in the mount it simply laid in to the mount. It took a few seconds to put it in or take it out.

PS and even though we had M-175 Dragon Mount on our M-113's for me 80-84 in both 1st ID and 8th ID we never fired them from it.

I never saw them fired from that mount ever.

We always fired from the bi pod mount it comes with.

And ether from a sitting or kneeling position.

I fired three live missiles in my time as a Dragon Gunner

But it always seemed like the M-175 was just something that took up space in the vehicle when it was in the Motor Pool, and it was something more for the camouflage netting to get caught on when you were in the field.

Yes, that was the same situation with the M-47 Dragons on our M113s in the Mech Bde at Benning. It would be a more stable platform than firing with the bipod on the ground.
As long as the track was not moving of course. And hopefully behind some cover hull down.

In the ROK,'84-'85, our M113s had the ACAV turret addition. You'd have to remove it to mount the M-175 to fire the Dragon round from the M113. IIRC, …

The ACAV turret was just a 2 piece addition, mounted in the TC hatch. So if need be it could be removed, But with the M-47. You'd probably be better to fire it from the ground. Albeit not as stable as on the M113. But it is easier to get the Dragon and Gunner under cover. If for no other reason than those are a smaller targets than an M113 …

Here is a link for a supplement to the 17-95 which describes the modified H series. Nice stuff for building that formation which I was.
link
Also other good stuff from 11 ACR. Enjoy.

Dan

Thanks for the link Dan.

That is an excellent resource.

The biggest problem we had with the H series organization when I was in B Troop, 1/4 Cav, 83-84 was that your Plt. Sgt (E-7) was a Scout that now after years of sneaking and peaking doing scout stuff was now riding on an M-60A3 tank. Having to learn a hole new job and gunnery system.

Over all the H series worked well for the offence and the defense. And with three of these Plt's Per Cav Troop you had one hell of a Recon asset.

We normally had our dismounts out forward from the 3 M-113's The two main M-113's over-watching them with the M-901's over-watching. with the Lt's M-113 somewhere between them for command and control. The 4 M-60A3's would be back in a hide, and was used as a reaction force to help the Scouts if they ran in to anything they could not handle.

One thing not in the above link by "Sneakypete" was we had 1 M-106 4.2" Mortar track per Cav Plt. Most of the time they were consolidated at Troop level (3 of them total) but a lot of the time we had our one M-106 sitting back close to the Lt's M-113 for direct fire missions.

And we never saw the Motorcycles that were promised. I remember seeing them next door over in 3/8 Cav (8th ID) in Germany back in 80-81 but not again till I ran in to some Motorcycles Scouts from 24th ID in the mid 90's out at NTC.

Our Bn Scout Plt in the 101 briefly had Sazuki Motorbikes @ '81-'82. But for some reason they were phased out.

What I do remember, they basically were stock from the manufacturer. I think the Maint. Manual was the same. I guess the Army didn't get around to making their own at that point, IIRC.

And the OD paint would frequently chip off. To reveal the original red paint underneath.

I guess it sounded like a good idea, but just didn't seem to take off ?

For the motorcycles, it seems the big problem is getting a diesel engine that small. Nobody wants cans of gasoline inside a track once the track starts taking fire.

The Marines have a diesel-powered motorcycle (M1030M1, a re-engined Kawasaki KLR650), but the engine is obscenely expensive, brings the whole motorcycle up to ~$20k.

From the bit I've read about them, in OPFOR games, the motorcycle riders quickly get taken out, if not decapitated by wires strung at the appropriate height in washes and gulleys, and across roads.

Of course, during wartime, I suspect there'd be less of that, since the terrain is so wide open, and you can only carry so much wire, but it does seem to be a big risk in tight terrain.

The main area you would use the bikes out at NTC was in the washes/wadis, places were there was small space to move across. Most of NTC if very rouge terrain with lost of washes/wadis. Even most of my movement day or night I stayed in them. On a BMP or most of the time in a BRDM. And after so long you know most of the washes/wadis systems were they go and were they link up with other ones. And where you can get out of them.

Most of them are 10-20 feet below the flat terrain of the desert. and they are anywhere from 10 meter's 1,000 meter's wide and go for miles.

During the early years of NTC the OPFOR had dirt bikes for the Recon Co. But the big problem was Blue force would string wire across the ashes/wadis at chest level to knock the riders off. I had a Plt Sgt on my first tour that had been there since the 1st rotation and he told me he lost count of the times he had been knock off his bike in the dead of the night. And his face showed scares from the wire as well. When I got there in 89 they had gotten ride of them for safety reasons.

The Blue Force one's I apposed from 24th ID new how to use them. The real problem we had was, they are small fast moving targets and even with a MILES lazier system it was hard to hit them. They would also try to get your attention with the noise of there bikes, two of them working together and then there HMMWVs Scouts would try to sneak threw our counter recon screen. From what we could see they were not using them at night. They probable thought there would be payback for years before with the wire across the wadis. But we were given strict orders not to or there would be hell to pay.

We had dirt bikes in the Air Cav troop blues platoon briefly in the 80s as well. We rigged mounts for them on the skids of the Hueys, which led to some predictable accidents which would be funny if it weren't for the injuries sustained by the "Delta Gang" which was the nickname for the 19Ds on the bikes.

The Deltas also had a habit of not doing a particularly good job of picking their paths which led to some spectacular accidents. We had one poor soul do his best Wiley E. Coyote imitation trying to jump the Cowhouse creek and ended up center punching the cliff face on the opposite bank. He was fortunate he wasn't killed and ended up with a medical discharge following several months in Darnell. The brigade CO nixed the bikes after that.

The moniker 19 Dum-Dum was not entirely unearned.

Yes we that spent time in a "Blues Platoon" were in most cases some crazy mo/fo's. Our Plt. never had dirt bikes, but I can imagine what would have happened.

A 30 man Plt with four UH-1's for our main transportation and one five ton truck and one deuce & 1/2 truck to carry all the additional stuff. Mainly two GP Med's tents,cots, tent heaters, fuel canes for the heaters, water cans, duffel bags with extra uniforms, for both our Plt. and the Lift Plt. (the four UH-1's) and there crews equipment. (Eight Pilots and the crew chiefs for the four birds.)

Four of our Plt. were always in the rear as crews for the two vehicles in case the troop jumped to a new location wile the rest of use were on missions. Normal a Sgt. and three Sp-4's or below. Or who ever was on the injured list from previous mission injury's.

Jumping out of a UH-1 at 12 feet off the ground with all your stuff to include a 120 pound ruck sack full of Ammo and chow mainly.

Our main deployment area was for S. Korea, Japan and the Philippines. So pretty much fly over there then get they would inert us in somewhere then hump to the top mountain top then lay-low for a few days calling in spot reports till we got extracted.

It was a fun assignment.
And I'm paying for it every day with my Knees and Back.

When the Div. went Light they changed our TO&E so the Blues Platoons went away and the put all of use in A Troop with Gun Jeeps and TOW Jeeps till we got Humvee's about a year later.
We changed from 3/4 Cav to 5/9 Cav.

(Blues Platoon, C Troop, 3rd Squadron, 4th Cavalry Regiment, 25th Infantry Division, Schofield Barracks, Hawaii. From Sep 1984 – Apr 1985.)