"Household cavalry trumpeters" Topic

I'm painting some British life guards and horse guards for 1815 and have trumpeter figures wearing bicornes, which I assume are full dress uniform. However I can't find any references or pictures illustrating the uniform for such trumpeters, for 1815 or earlier. Can anyone enlighten me or are the figures just wrong?

Mont St Jean website have helmets on the trumpeters.

link

I would say the figures are wrong.

I would ask the source of the figures you are using.

Give us a scale, any ref numbers and maker's name at least. Even the worst ever photo.

Even if you have no idea of the source, the simplest roughest image and I would bet in 5 minutes someone here will tell you what you have in your hands.

Any money what you have is a Peninsular figure.

Thank you both. The figure is Hinchliffe BNC14, but there is no photo on the website. The bicorne is side to side, rather than fore and aft. The other household cavalry figures in the same range have the helmet. I also have the previous Hinchliffe life guard trumpeter from the 1970s that also has a bicorne. The sculptor must have based it on something?

I see your frustration having followed the thread. The only figure lacking a photo, on that page.

He might just be in a parade outfit, full dress as you said, but, if so, not something that immediately comes to mind as familiar. Does his saddlery compare with the rest of the Household range?

How I loved Hinchliffe figures in the mid/late 70s. Compared with my Airfix plastics, they were just wonderful.

British Napoleonic Uniforms by C E Franklin (The History Press 2008) shows:
on page 46 – 1st Life Guards Officer undress and dress bicorns c 1793 – 1814 and an officer's helmet c 1814
on page 47 – 2nd Life Guards Officer undress and dress bicorns c 1793 – 1814 and a trooper's helmet c 1813
on page 49 – Royal Horse Guards Officer undress bicorn c 1793 – 1814, a troopers tricorn c 1793 and a trooper's helmet c 1814.

The text at page 12 says that the pattern for the new heavy cavalry helmet was sealed January 1812 and was intended for use by all the heavy cavalry … in August two styles of crest were settled upon, the chenille crest was retained by the Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards while the dragoon guards and dragoons were issues with a revise version with a … horse tail mane.

Assuming that your trumpeter figure is wearing a coatee you could do a head transfer, or just paint him in the bircorn (and explain if necessary that it is a vintage figure and you are lucky to have it). If he is wearing a coat it he might be in state dress (totally inappropriate for use in the field) – I'd paint him as such and again explain that it is a vintage figure.

The upcoming Perry Household Cavalry Trumpeteers have helmets:

Umm
The box art says Warlord !

Never mind what it says………first I had heard of these!

The Warlord website can be confusing as to what is their own and what is Perrys', but sold by them

and the trumpeter did not ride a grey remember, despite the pic above

The figures may have been based on some uniform plates made by Sauerweid in 1816, preserved in the Royal Collection. They represent trumpeters and a kettledrummer of the 1st Life Guards. As far as I know, only the latter has been published so far. You can find him here (scroll down; the picture is placed after about one third of the page):

link

I've nowhere found the plates showing the trumpeters but they have been described in "Military Drawings and Paintings in the Royal Collection" by Miller and Dawnay, Volume Two, London 1970, p.155, Cat.Nos. 1787 and 1788 (Cat.No. 1786 is a description of the kettledrummer mentioned above).

1787:
"Trumpeter, 1st Life Guards, 1816….Full length, mounted, to right, on a grey [!], head turned away from viewer. Hat as No. 1786 [i.e. bicorne], wearing scarlet cloak with stand collar and short blue cape, gold loops on front. The cloak is drawn with neither sleeves nor slits for the arms, and with one hand protruding through the front opening."

1788:
"Trumpeter, 1st Life Guards, Dismounted. About 1816….Uniform generally as No. 1787, vandyke line on collar only, not on pouch-belt, white waist-belt and sword slings below a broad yellow girdle with two crimson stripes, steel sword with white sword-knot, silver trumpet (much too small) with gold and crimson lines, but no banners, hat with cockade [so, bicorne again] over instead of under the loop."

On page 154, we read this verdict on Sauerweid: "…Sauerweid has been grossly over-estimated as an authority on uniform and one is forced to the conclusion that in the case of his drawings of the British Army, his source was C. Hamilton Smith…In general, his work is unreliable when dealing with details of military costume."

Thank you all very much – so it seems there is some basis for a bicorne, albeit probably inaccurate and it should be the helmet for 1815. I'll keep the figures anyway, maybe get some in helmet as well.

But what about these plastic Household Cavalry?

Recent US events have warned me to not believe everything one sees on line, or, if so, do not allow local ladies into your Moscow hotel, however desperate their need.

Where did this tale originate? The Cavalry…not the…oh forget it…..

Warlord British Cavalry:

link

Brilliant!

Union Brigade as well.

Tango, how did you miss this?

We have been asking for these for years in plastic and they were announced over 72 hours ago!

The "Hallelujah Chorus" is playing in my head, over and over.

I already had as many British heavies as I needed. Until now.

What, 72 hours and no one has criticised them yet. Slacking…

Always good to see more Naps, and cavalry to boot. Warlord are to be applauded for taking these on.

Tango refused to post…..or so he says….because we are only seeing the box lid, not the figures.

I reckon he missed them……

The promise is the whole of the Waterloo British heavy cavalry, Somerset and Ponsonby.

Did Somerset and Ponsonby wear bicornes? I need to use my figures somehow…

Lambert,
Your figures are correctly dressed. Just not correctly dressed for campaign or battle. They are dressed for ordinary daily guard mounting on Whitehall.

I remember asking the figure designer, the late Peter Gilder about them and he said he had taken it from a book of prints, but that he had found out it wasn't the correct order of dress and intended to replace the figure, but never got round to it. My guess of the book is 'Military paintings and drawings in the Royal collection'- which includes Sauerweids- PG had that on his bookshelf at the original wargames holiday centre.

Prob the best thing to do with those old but very nice figures is cut cut the trumpet and hand off and attach it to the arm of a trooper in place of his sword hand. Then you can also make a staff officer in bicorne. Maybe a bit of miliput to make a sash for the latter??

Seneffe

That's briliant – many thanks. Mystery solved, and a great suggestion as well.

Like most senior generals, Ponsonby and Somerset would have turned out in what was almost civilian dress. Picton and the story of his lost outfit….he would have been attired the same whatever, I suspect.

Ponsonby, the tale is of a fur lined coat, dark blue, Picton's was "drab" whatever that means. The Duke favoured a cloak over his jacket, not an over coat…on and off all day he said