"Question for Extra Crispy" Topic

Hi
I've been intrigued by your responses to the question, what are the best 15mm Napoleonic figures on the market. I have seen you answer this question with something like, "ABs are best, and the range I stock is 2nd best". As someone with a bit of marketing background I'm intrigued by this answer. What is you thinking? Are ABs so much better that to say anything else would totally undermine your credibility? Are ABs so much more expensive or their range doesn't compete with yours directly? What does the manufacturer of your range think of your market positioning of their product? I don't collect 15mm Naps, nor do I have any intention to. I'm simply interested in your reasoning.
Best
Murray

If I can just be a little presumptious and answer the question myself- I'm sure Mr. Severin will be along shortly.
Coming from a marketing background,as you state, this probably does seem a bit incongruous- it's called being honest.
Steve.

Yep, I think it's, umm, just true.

It should also be pointed out that Mark has had a website of 15mm figure reviews since long before he started selling Fantassin. That site has always rated AB as best, so (1) his view was clear and public before Fantassin ever started dealing with him, and (2) saying anything else really would be asking for trouble, since it would be a *very* obvious case of "this range is best, because I sell 'em...." as he never used to say they were best, so what's changed...?

As for price points; yep, AB are in a league of their own on that one. In value for money terms, Fantassin comfortably beat AB unless you have enough spare cash that pricing isn't really a factor; his assessment is a good one.

Dom.

Fantassin is compatible in size with AB and, IMHO, is best value for money for the price sensitive and as well as not sensitive crowd.

Plus they have a lot of ranges that the others don't cover (I had a lot of fun with the Marie-Louise for instance). so, hmm, yes "2nd best" is a very well deserved title.

Hi
Just to be clear, I understand that Mark is being honest. And despite having a bit of marketing experience, I can appreciate the benefits of honesty! Indeed, one could argue that if you are in it for the long haul, then hoesty is the best strategy. I simply find Mark's directness very refreshing e.g., he doesn't lead with "value for money, you can't beat Fantassin", he actually answers the question being asked by the consumer.
M

As a store, I am familiar with all the problems of carrying a variety of companies. Sometimes you cannot get a company to sell to you. exclusives, they prefer direct sales, sometimes an order is too small and you have to order more than you can sell to meet a minimum. The number of reasons for not carrying a particular brand are numerous. EC can cite his particular situation.

Most of us do the best that we can. Time Portal

Ummmm.....There are like 5-6 guys on this board that you never challenge or question. Not because they can't take it, but because you will unleash their minions.

Mark, Mark, where are you Mark. TMP calling Mark!

I wonder if his ears are burning? Perhaps they're extra crispy by now?????????????

(sorry)

I believe the quote from the website I like best is "Fantassin is the 14k standard to ABs 18k."

This is not a simple question, so the answer will be a bit long. I won't be offended if anyone skips to the end.

In my mind, marketing is about (primarily) three things. First and foremost knowing and understanding your customer (and potential customers). Second, finding a compelling way to present your product(s) to those customers in a way which is meaningful and compelling. And third, knowing yourself – who/what you are and what your point of difference is. Let me just say a word or two about each in turn.

(1) Know the Customer: For 15mm Napoleonics (and probably lots of other customers too, but we'll stick with this for now) that means understanding how customers buy and use the figures. What do they look for? What kind of shopping experience do they want? Besides figures in the mail, what else can a retailer do to gain their business? Once you know the customers you can segment them, and try and work out which ones you can profitably serve. For example, there are many gamers who like all of their units to "look smart" and thus want identical poses for each unit. Whatever you think of the figures, AB, Fantassin, Battle Honors and Old Glory will not please this customer – the resulting units will look too "ragged." Tom Dye at GFI/Minifigs prefers his Napoleonics this way. If this is what you want I usually suggest Minifigs or Essex. I have some "starving students" who shop my "singles" section to build DBN armies on the cheap. By buying single figures, they don't waste money on excess command figures or elite companies or whatever. They like Old Glory's price, but simply don't need 100 (or 50 now). Again, price is much more important here. Likewise, I have another customer who likes to build units from as many different manufacturers as possible. Here again, the ability to sell single figures in a wide variety of poses matters more than compatibility (irrelevant in this case) or price.
(2) Find a way to showcase your product to your customer in a meaningful and compelling way. This is where Marketing most often gets it's sometimes "slimy" reputation. At times marketing gets taken to mean "tell them anything they want to hear, if it will get them to buy the product." (BTW Fantassin figures cure baldness, erectile dysfunction, can improve your credit rating.....any Tom Waits "Small Change" fans out there?). That's not marketing, that's crap. If you really want to do marketing, you must connect in a meaningful and compelling way. With Fantassin figures that might mean, "The AB for the working man." Nearly as good but a much better value. How you address this depends obviously on understanding and identifying customers.
(3) This is where many companies fail. They simply lack a coherent identity. They don't have a message for the consumer that lets the consumer understand what they have to offer in a way that connects with them and their lives. Old Glory has clearly staked out the "value" brand territory. They have the lowest price, you have to buy in bulk – kind of the warehouse club strategy. AB are at the opposite end of the spectrum. We're the best and we price accordingly – this is the Mercedes strategy. Wargames Foundry has this problem in the wargaming community. Of course, they would say they are not interested in that customer – they are interested in the collector. Fantassin, to my mind, have a good fit here – they have kind of a Lexus strategy. Better product than a Chevy, lower price than a Mercedes. There is no shame in admitting the Mercedes is a better car in some ways. The question will be (a) can you afford the Mercedes and (b) do you want to? Realistically, my wife and I could both drive a big splashy Mercedes if we wanted to. We don't want to. She has a nice SUV, I am perfectly content with my 1996 Accord with 120,000 miles.

So what does all this mean? Easy. It seems foolish to me to pretend that AB are not wonderful figures. I've said so before and I always will. Not perfect, but really nice. But they will not be for everybody. They may be more than you want to spend. They may not make the figure you need. You may want identical poses. They may not mix well with your other troops (or the other troops in your club). But of course my "ratings" are dependent on my criteria which you can see here, by the way:

link

And by the way, believe it or not, I know gamers who don't like AB much at all. They think the poses are too "static" and the figures are too spindly. Horses for courses, I think the Brits say.

One more point. Acting as a buyer (my marketing background includes 10 years of retail, several of market research and consulting, and an MBA from Northwestern) you never mistake buying for yourself with buying for your customer. If your customers want figures with gigantic heads, that's what you stock. This is now my livelihood. I stock what sells, not necessarily what I like. Which is not to say I'd stock a product I can't support – some products are just crap, after all – but I'm actively looking at product lines that I may not necessarily care for, but that I think could use good distribution, and that my customers will like.

And of course, all of this also applies to other products in the hobby. Vallejo has some ardent fans. They run about $2.50 USD - $3.00 USD per bottle for about 2/3 an ounce. Craft paints are about $70 USD per 2 oz. Foundry paints only come in 3-packs. Then there are the brushes at anything from 12 for a dollar to $12 USD each.

So to answer your questions:

Yes, I would say on raw sculpting the Fantassin line are second best. But they're quite a bit cheaper than AB. Last time I checked AB were about $.78 USD per foot figure while Fantassin run $.50 USD So I would say for high quality sculpts, Fantassin represent the best overall value. Of course, Old Glory are still under $.30 USD each, so if price is critical, you'll definitely want to look at them. I don't think credibility is at issue here at all. It would be if I went back and changed my opinions!

Yes, we compete directly for some customers and not others. In many cases people buy from both of us and we're competing for "share of pocket."

The manufacturer knows the market as well as I do, if not better. Frankly we've never discussed the reviews, though they are well aware of them.

Okay, I've gone on long enough.

Great questions though.

Mark "Extra Crispy" Severin

Owner, Manager, Janitor ScaleCreep.com

Author, Webmaster, Whipping Boy DeepFriedHappyMice.com

Ok but can a mouse really be happy and deep fried?yeah answer that one.:0)

Spoken like a man who has never deep fried one. Now if you want to see a really miserable rodent, try sauteeing one...

I think that Mark made a compelling arguement that we historical gamers have a choice when it comes to 15mm Napoleonics. While many may feel that AB is "tops", others don't. Is that wrong? Why, of course not! There is room for the choices we have, from the standpoint of the consumer.

I get a good chuckle when I see these pointless "Brand X is better than Brand Z" posts! Neither "Brand" will make you toss the dice any better in your games! It really comes down to what YOU like. I have seen many "campaigns" that promote the merits of some figure lines yet when you get them, the proportions are more akin to "fantasy" proportions than those of a human!

When advertising one's ranges, there is nothing wrong with honestly speaking why you like one over another. Sometimes, it's the things NOT said that might "nail" it for you. We manufacturers and importers have just as valid opinions on "quality" as you (the consumers) do. Most of us are gamers, painters and collectors, also. It just may not be "tactful" to speak your real feelings in a public forum. Such honesty can be perceived incorrectly to some who may not truly understand the position one may be in, regarding buisness.

That said, I have many different makers of 15mm Naps in my armies. I am probably more of a painter than a gamer in that respect. Because "I" have painted them, they are "my" favorites. (Regardless of who sculpted or sold them!) Afterall, it will be my abilities in their employment on the game table that will win battles for me....not their pose, sculpting style nor my paint jobs! Since realizing this FACT, I have begun to once again enjoy my hobby and worry about more "important" things.

As a consumer, I will avoid any company that tout's their ranges as "The Best". There will always be some issue that will shoot them out of the water! Buy what you like. Sell what you have/can get. Enjoy the hobby and realize that the hobby does NOT need any internal strife over stupid issues when we (as an industry) are trying to compete against all the other outlets for your disposable income!

Cheers!

Tom Dye
GFI

Mark and Tom make good points. In beginning SYW, I initially acquired a large collection of Old Glory figures - they were cheap and I believed them to be fine (and still do). I later acquired a collection of painted figures, mostly Freikorps and Minifigs, and decided to get rid of my OG figures and start buying new Minifigs, because (a) the Minifigs mix better with my new ones, and (b) I actually like the look of the Minifigs a bit better for SYW (and they really aren't that much more expensive).

I still like the OG, and my friend who also games SYW (and is a master painter) prefers OG over others for SYW (and incidentally buys AB and Fantassin nappies only), so everyone has their own tastes.

yes, AB vs OG vs MiniFigs etc.. is a matter of taste.
So if Mark, or Dick or Harry says "Z is the best 15mm Napoleonic figure out there" that is all they are representing...their tastes.
Prices, packaging etc are all facts and factors that influence our disposition to purchase. But you got to like what you are buying first.
One other element that influence my purchasing is the product line breadth...is it complete? or will I have to wait 25 years to see it never completed....
Some product lines like MiniFig...you can get any era any nationality of the Napoleonics wars, some others are very limited, say late uniform French and not all nationalities. Some people don't mind using say, Saxons in bicornes for your Saxon force in 1813, others want them in shakos.
Vive le difference!

Rick Caras

Fantassin figures cure baldness? Is that only the Napoleonics ones? And do I have to eat them or rub them on my head?

Sorry Mark just being silly. And demonstrating that some people will believe anything they read......

Now, for the erectile disfunction should I keep a French Curassier in my underpants.........?

James

James:

To cure baldness glue em to your scalp (CA works well). For the problem "down south" I think you want lancers....

As a side note, I believe the AB range is no longer being expanded? I also believe that AB has said many times they will not have a US distributor. So that would leave out Mark anyway.

Rich

Hi Rich:

There was a story here a while back explaining that they had no wish to add a US distributor / manufacturer:

TMP link

Nic at Eureka can probably confirm, but I've read somewhere that he can't work in smaller scales any more - some health condition is to blame IIRC. Thus Eureka is "filling in the blanks" so to speak.

I am unaware of any health problems with Tony Barton at the moment. He is enjoying sculpting 20mm WW2 figures, and some excellent 1/6th scale heads.
As far as I know he hasn't any plans to make new 15mm figures and consquently Eureka are making compatible figures to cover the gaps in the AB range in conjunction with Alan Marsh.

Nic EUREKA MINIATURES

I have carried most of the ranges for Napoleonics at one time or another. Including importing Fantassin from Spain in the late 1990s. Most of my clients view AB (one that I have not carried) as too big.

Most liked Fantassin but their range is more limited than others. The most extensive range available is Minifig.

NattleHonors and Old Glory 15mm only do certain year groups with some of their nationalities. Still the Turks and otehrs are very nice.

Snowcrash...I wonder how much do you know about the complexities and vast number of options and costs that stores have to consider with their limited funds to stock their store. A Store's limited Budget and respect/ considerations for the casting companies is more of a concern than fear of 'un-informed minions'.

FWIW, GFI/Minifigs will be shortly be offering 15mm Napoleonic Spanish. I just ordered the mold rubber. Portuguese this fall.

Best,
Tom Dye
GFI

"Ok but can a mouse really be happy and deep fried?yeah answer that one.:0)"

Powderman, EC says he worked in retail for 10 years or so. Given the awful wages and abuse such folk put up with, it's no wonder he learned how to deep fry mice...