"Talk to me about fanions in the Guard" Topic

…the Grenadiers and Chasseurs that is.

Was the fanion attached to a pike, a musket or either?

What were the positions in the line of fanion bearers vis a vis the flag?

How many bearers were there?

I'd never really noticed these critters before, see…

The fanion, introduced roundabout 1812 with the new eagle colours pattern, was attached to a flagstaff usually with a spearhead. It was supposed to be a plain colour but many regiments, especially the Guard, made a more elaborate flag of it. It was carried by a senior NCO but, officially had no status so there was no official 'guard' etc. However, unofficially, battalions tended to give them some protection but there is little record of what this was (probably a couple of trusty rankers). The fanion would be deployed between the 2nd and 3rd companies i.e. in the centre of the battalion line. It is really all a bit hazy but from my readings over the years this seems to be the state of play.

When the eagles were restricted to the 1st battalion of a regiment, the other battalions were given fanions of different colors to denote which battalion was which.

Napoleon wrote out the order himself on 24 December 1811.

The fanions were nothing but distinguishing flags and were not supposed to have any decorations on them at all, but that was ignored by the units who did not care to be carrying nothing but a one-meter square table cloth.

There were also smaller company fanions which were carried on a small dowel which fit into the musket of the fanion-bearer. They were analogous to the company guidons carried today. They were designed as guides and markers, with no distinguishing decorations or unit markings. That, too, was ignored.

Thanks all. So Kevin, fanions would not be found in a 1st battalion? Was that also the case with the line?

No fanions in the first battalions. There was no colour defined for them only for the junior battalions as follows:

2nd battalion – white.
3rd battalion – red.
4th battalion – blue.
5th battalion – green.

This was the regulation for the line and I expect that it was the same for the Guard.

As a further complication, some Guard units did not have Eagles and therefore had 'fancy' fanions instead. A lot of research is required but this is a good start point albeit for 1815. link

Wow, so a French second battalion advanced into action waving a small white flag!? No wonder they weren't happy!

Now, now. No jokes about French military prowess.

The 1st battalions would have their company fanions though.

And the decorations applied to the fanions were sometimes quite involved.

And it should be remembered also that white was the Bourbon color, and all French infantry regiments of the old Royal Army had a white colonel's flag along with the colored (in many varieties) regimental color.

French senior officers from regiment on up also wore a white plume.

White plume implied attached to the Staff I have always understood…..so indeed beyond regimental officers as you say

The regimental staff, the regimental and battalion commanders also wore white plumes. And the senior SNCOs on the regimental staff also wore white plumes. There were five Adjutantants-sous-officiers on the infantry regimental staffs.

White 'feathers' did not have a negative connotation in the British army either, having become the emblem of grenadiers during the AWI. Indeed, one regiment – the 'Shiny' Fifth affected a non-regulation white feather distinction which they claimed represented white plumes taken from fallen French soldiers in the West Indies in 1778.

Absolutely. The white feather = cowardice was a much later development. It came to a head during WW1 when 'patriotic' young ladies in Britain would present white feathers to young men who they thought 'shirkers'. I do not know how long before that they really came in, but the famous story, 'The Four Feathers' was set in the Sudan during the Omdurman campaign.

You experts certainly know your fanions……

Trés bien, Monsieur Maximoos. Zey are all Fanion Johnnies

For clarity, what I was thinking of doing was using the command figures to distinguish 2nd, 3rd battalions etc in some way that could be consistent across a whole army. So the 1st battalion command stand would have a geezer with a flag but the 2nd, 3rd etc would have a fanion-geezer.

Of course all this does is identify that the unit is a second or third battalion. It doesn't say anything about to which 1st battalion it belongs. This fills me with feelings of angst and dismay although I struggle to identify why this would ever matter.

There are examples, few unfortunately, around, so if you put a number on the fanion, surround it with a laurel wreath, and then decorate it with bursting bombs or hunting horns, depending on whether they are grenadiers or chasseurs, there really isn't anyone who can criticize you.

That's my recommendation anyways. Modeling is to satisfy the modeler, not the audience. That's how I do it, and it seems to work.

Flags can make the display.

Brechtel,

I had never realised that the grenadier symbol was in fact a "bursting bomb". I don't know how I had missed it, because it seems obvious now you say it. I have been familiar with the symbol for at least forty years and it has never once occurred to me that it is an exploding grenade.

Thanks for that. I learned something new today.

At the school club I belonged to we once convinced one of our number that the grenade patch was in fact an octopus and anyone wearing it was a Sailor of the Guard.

For all I know he still thinks that.

That wasn't very nice. ;-)

Hilarious though.

I am intrigued SJ. What did you think the symbol represented?

It wasn't till my mid-20s that I realised Superman had an 'S'on his chest. I took it to be some esoteric Kryptonian symbol (principle of negative space)

I had never realised that the grenadier symbol was in fact a "bursting bomb". I don't know how I had missed it, because it seems obvious now you say it. I have been familiar with the symbol for at least forty years and it has never once occurred to me that it is an exploding grenade.

Thanks for that. I learned something new today.

I have news for you about the Grenadier Guards, Royal Regt of Fusiliers, Royal Artillery, and Royal Engineers……

G'Day Gents

For the French…it is not an exploding grenade…but a grenade with flames. The number of flames was what was important…

The grenade was originally for the Grenadiers (a pied et a cheval)…then Dragons…followed by the artillery…and during the revolution…in the Garde Nationale the officier De Grenadiers were permitted the grenade as well…so on and so forth….

Post Napoleonic the number of flames were set at seven. As always there are a few exceptions…

Today the French Infantry have three flames…Commando Marines have seven flames…and the Gendarmerie have five flames…and out of tradition la brigade de sapeurs-pompiers de Paris still have their old flames…

Best Regards
Art

Well hands up if you knew that……….

Flaming grenades yes, but number of flames. No! Brilliant

If this turns out to be the sort of "wind up" that my two lads regularly do….it just occurred to me!

I am intrigued SJ. What did you think the symbol represented?

To be honest is I had never really thought about it (and if I had thought about it I would probably have thought it looked a bit like a turnip). To me it was just a pictogram that said 'grenadiers'.

I probably first came across the term grenadiers when I was about ten but it must have been a good twenty years later that I learned that their name derived from the word grenade. The result is that I just don't associate grenades with grenadiers.

In the British Army both the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers wear grenade collar badges. The Royal Artillery badge has 7 flames, and the a Royal Engineer one has 9 flames, the same 7 around the sides, plus two more in the centre.

Rod

I still say that marines should have eight flames from their grenades.

Wow. From fanions to grenades via white feathers. I love this site.

A couple of thoughts

1. A flaming grenade is likely to be a grenade that is about to explode.

2. During the 18th, the word 'grenade' came to signify not only the (obsolescent) projectile tossed by grenadiers* but also any explosive munition, particularly one fired from a mortar; less so a field artillery 'shell' I think, although I stand to be corrected.

*{This explains the specific term 'hand grenade' (even though the original 'granadoes' were infantry projectiles the size and shape of a pomegrenate; the label 'hand' being therefore superfluous).}

The 'grenade' as flaming/exploding shell explains the association, in a British context, with the Royal Artillery, and thence, with the regiments of Fusiliers formed to guard the Artillery Train (whose uniforms evolved on a parallel track with grenadiers, leading to the shift from 'specialist' to pseudo-elite status).

For the Royal Engineers, the 'grenade' emblem perhaps symbolises more the exploding petard set to undermine enemy fortifications (No UXO role in those days).

+ 3. In a wider context the grenade emblem seems to have come to denote an general elite status, distinct from the original function of select or specialist frontline troops.

For instance, the French Gendarmerie National and Italian Carabinieri both adopted grenade emblems as part of their insignia. Its adoption by French dragoons also indicates this more generalised use (Were French Horse Grenadiers technically dragoons, or attached to Dragoon regiments?) Similarly, later on the grenade badge was used by some French Foreign Legion units, together with grenadiers' red epaulettes, to signify a force to be reckoned with long before their selection process rendered them elite in C21st terms.

Indeed, by the mid-18th the infantry grenadier, despite his cap and his match, would be unlikely to see a grenade, let alone hurl one in anger. The grenade emblem, with all the other trappings had come to be simply the mark of a reliable (in battle at least), well-built and, usually, more experienced soldier.

G'Day Mr 42

For the French Military …the flames are what is important…not the grenade….

The French Foreign Legion has seven flames…the maximum…and all three lines of discipline…I do not recall how many the French infantry has..either one or two lines of discipline…easy enough to look up…

Its in the TTA-150 ect…

As of 1980 or 1981 we transitioned to F1…and GV (Grenadier/Voltigeur)…and in July 1985 I went from green to gold grenades…

In our Regimental History…we claim linage with the 2e Swiss of 1815 (even though we were officially established in 1831)…that is why that regiment is my favorite in wargames…and of course it is always the figures everyone tries to destroy on the game table ;-)

Best Regards
Art

Mais, pas de grenade, pas des flammes, non?

(et, pas des flammes, pas de 'boum')
YouTube link

The regiment that became the Grenadiers a Cheval of the Imperial Guard was originally recruited from French dragoon regiments, and that is probably the reason that it was initially 'designated' as light cavalry.

US 1/72 guys get the company fanion holder. This thread has been good for me to point out that the battalion fanion was something different.

Thanks guys

Actually this came out while we were deployed…

and it was a good laugh

YouTube link

G'Day Marc

In your photo…the proper name is:

Fanion de Compagnie

The Reglement de 1779 (21 Fevrier) the Fanion de Compagnie was given to the Fourrier of each compagnie….sergent-major

But by the time of the Guerre De La Revolution…how the fanions were made was "la volonte du Colonel lui seul"…so Kevin is correct in that you can make this fanion however you want.

The Fanion De Bataillon ou Fanion Tactique was used for the alignments de bataillons en 1788…and then as Kevin mentions…you have Le Decret De 1811 (25 Decemvre) et L'Ordre Du Jour De 1812 (12 Fevrier)

Originally there was a Fanion Tactique for the 1er Bataillon…but it was decided that when the Regimental Commander was not present (major in charge of exercise)…that when the colours were used…they would be covered.

Then you get into the history of the colonel's colours…and why the 2e bataillon has them…

There is the myth that the Colonel's Colours were regarded as Royal…but that didn't haven until 1816.

It was a compensation par du roi…-"Le Drapeau Blanc ne marchait jamias qu'accompagne d'un drapeau d'ordonnance".

Dans l'ordonnace de 1776…et l'ordonnance de 1780…"…le Drapeau blanc, non comme royal ou national, mais comme drapeau de Colonelle".

Best Regards
Art

The Reglement de 1779 (21 Fevrier) the Fanion de Compagnie was given to the Fourrier of each compagnie….sergent-major

I don't believe that the company fourrier and the company sergeant-major are the same person or of equivalent rank, if that was what you meant-it's hard to tell from the posting.

Based on material in the Musee de l'Armee in Paris, the flaming grenade/bursting bomb was used by line grenadiers, Grenadiers a Pied and a Cheval of the Imperial Guard, cuirassiers, gendarmerie, Chasseurs a Cheval of the Imperial Guard, artillery, and undoubtedly more.

It was the symbol of elite units of all arms regardless of the number of flames attached to the device. The 'sou of the grenade' was the term for the elite companies haut pay (high pay).

Light infantry units adopted the hunting horn to designate elite units, such as the line and light infantry voltigeur companies and the Chasseurs a Pied of the Imperial Guard and the Chasseurs a Cheval of the Imperial Guard.

See Napoleon et ses Soldats, Tome 2, which has examples of original pieces of equipment, horse furniture, shako and bearskin plaques, etc.

Thank you…

correct it was a typo…

It was suppose to be:

The Reglement de 1779 (21 Fevrier) the Fanion de Compagnie was given to the Fourrier of each compagnie…by their compagnie sergent-major

How does that fit in with the Fourriers providing the Eagle Guard before 1808? If they were doing that, did they give the company fanion to someone else?

G'Day Gordon

You have asked a very good question…

We know that the Garde Drapeau for du reglement du 1791 was made up of the 8 fourriers from each of the 8 pelotons de fusiliers (the fourrier from the grenadier peloton was not used).

But this was found wanting…

"Les fourriers n'etaient pas les sous-officiers qu'il eut convenu d'afffecter a la defense du Drapeau…" nor were they considered to be "instruits tactiquement"…

It is mentioned that many returned back to the constitution of the Garde Drapeau of 1776, which composed of a Premier Sergent, and de premier coporal (aux Tableau) de chacune des quatre compagnies de fusiliers.

Then you have the period when there are only 7 fusilier pelotons in a battalion…because the Fourrier from the voltigeur peloton would have to be exempt just like the grenadier peloton.

In 1810 the Garde Drapeau according to the Tableaux Synoptiques Des Manoeuvres D'Infanterie, was composed of 8 sous-officiers, sergens ou fourriers.

Therefore I believe that prior to 1808…it makes sense that the constitution of the Garde Drapeau was simular to the 1776 composition.

But…

In 1782 les Fourriers etaient abolis, ou s'etataient transformes en sergents-majors…therefore the Reglement de 1779 (21 Fevrier) is replaced…

In 1788 cree un Caporal-fourrier. depuis les ordonnances de 1788 et de 1791, ils ont ete nommes caporaux-fourriers.

Since a caporal is not a sous-officier…the caporal had to have been aux tableau…(on the promotion list)…if a constitution of the Garde Drapeau of 1776 was used with sous-officiers.

Does that help or make it more confusing?

Best Regards
Art

Art, thanks. I think I see what's going on but it's definitely through a mirror darkly.

G'Day Gordon,

La Circulaire de 1791 which was in accordance with the decret of 1790 (Octobre) permitted the Captain the right to choose his Fourrier from all the caporaux de la compagnie…or from a soldat with two years service. This was then permitted with approval from the Colonel.

Best Regards
Art