"French Horse Artillery - Talavera" Topic

The second French Horse Artillery battery is now finished in the process to complete various odds and ends in the French and British orders of battle for Talavera before focusing on the last Spanish units required.

With this post I thought it might be interesting to look at the development of French artillery and horse artillery in particular together with thoughts on modelling them.

If you would like to know more then just follow the link to JJ's

link

Jonathan

Great work again

J

Hello.

Some super research here and the re enactment team film is brilliant.

I once found a diorama by a French chap showing the complete disposition of a typical French battery. The area covered was immense and that was just eight guns and support! Alas I can not locate it but it makes an interesting point that a lot of wargamers tend to overlook.

Best wishes,

Chris

Great piece Jonathan. We are in the process of building 10mm armies for the Peninsular War and adapting rules for the conflict. The information on artillery ranges is very useful. I thought the colours used by the reenactors were interesting; the gunners's uniforms are verging on black and the carriage/ limbers look almost yellow, more like the colour I envisage for Austrian artillery. I painted my 15mm French carriages with an ochre/black mix, trying to replicate a recipe I found online. They came out a bit greener than the reenactment stuff, but with a definite yellowish tinge.
I wonder how easy it was to carry out the artillery drill under battle conditions, with bits of lead flying around and the chance of a bunch of cavalry hovering around with the intention of doing you serious mischief?

Strange that the re-enactors got the drill wrong. The Rammer should be on the right hand side. The charge was obviously too small. The rounds were never moved up the same side as the porte fire for safety reasons.
Stephen

Good spot Stephen. I thought the chap not placing his thumb over the vent was odd but he did it on the second round as per regulations.

Chris

Great work.

Just played Talavera (8 player, 15mm, Shako II rules) last night. Been a while since most of us played Shako, and it has some strange mechanics (and some clever rules, too), but in any case, twas a British-Spanish victory. Six turns, 3 hours, ending at 11pm. Called, losses tallied, and a French defeat. Interesting scenario.

How good to hear from Summerfield once more.

We have often seen this unit and they always put the spongeman/rammer on the wrong side. (Maybe the individual is left handed, but still…..) and the models all got it right!

I thought I might forgive the lack of a thumb in the vent for the first shot, when the barrel is cold….but not when reloading. easily blow the arms off the poor spongeman as he rams the round home!

I was impressed by the size of the horses. These do look like they could pull a 12pdr, but maybe not at a gallop! It would be nice to see the characteristic artillery wooden collars for the harness. These have a lighter carriage rig instead

The Artillery Green does look very yellow indeed. The very dark blue of the gunners is just what one does see in museums today. Whether a few weeks on campaign would preserve that, with the dyes of that period….Nicely done though

Despite all that…..great re-enactment, but funny to repeatedly get such fundamental things wrong. (see the linked videos here)

Great to watch but a shame about the historical errors. And I know they are re-enactors and were not firing live ammunition but they did not even clear out any possible residue between charges! They would not have got away with it with the French artillery re-enactor group I once belonged to.

A couple of comments that might be helpful…

The coffret when removed from the piece in action was placed on the limber. Ammunition would be taken from it for immediate use and replenished from the caisson assigned to the piece.

The prolonge was always attached from the limber to the trail transom of the piece in action for immediate use.

yes the gun drill is disappointing, how the linstock is held when igniting, or the had to ears re – enactment invention, has nothing to do with French artillery gun drill, a pity – it is rare to see a team drawn gun.

On the other hand – high quality output of Jonathan again.

From what I gather the dark look of the artillery uniforms is probably quite authentic. Illustrators usually show something lighter, but I suspect that was initially for artistic reasons, which then sort of got baked in as earlier works became reference points for later ones. There's a common misconception that blue uniforms fade like modern jeans – but surviving specimens look very dark.

I think the yellow carriage is probably the result of following to the letter the published mix between black and yellow ochre in the French regulations. However the result depends on the relative strength of the pigments – so it looks as if the yellow is too strong or the black too weak. All references that I know suggest that French artillery was painted green. I mix black into yellow ochre (or oxide yellow) until I get a nice shade of olive green. It's just a matter of the relative balance of the two pigments.

Nice work
Cheers
Losh

Thanks for the kind comments chaps and the informed discussion, most interesting and much appreciated.

I didn't expect the reenactors to prompt such an enthusiastic response. My main interest in their video presentation was seeing the practicality of moving and deploying these weapons, rather than their uniform or equipment colours, which I hoped was covered off in more detail in the rest of the post.

As in all things Napoleonic I am always wary of talking in absolutes, apart from the odd date and who wrote something to someone else which is usually pretty well firmed up. So ranges, precise colour shades and what was prescribed under drill regulations and what happened in reality are all open to discussion given the issues of the odd 200+ years since all this stuff occurred and the reliability issues of references and given that no one is around today who was there at the time. You have to feel for the chaps discussing ancients.

Glad you enjoyed the post and happy to have put French artillery on the agenda. With just three foot limbers to go I am happy to see the French order of battle done. I'll see if I can fire up the discussion with the British limber teams.

Cheers all
JJ

French Artillery Green was a mixture of ochre and lampblack with a Japan varnish. This gives an olive as best green but could vary from yellow ochre to olive green to a brownish colour. The colour was correct with the paint mixture as in the regulations. I know that is inconvenient to the wargamer.

The Firer side NEVER had the ammunition run up that side for obvious safety reasons. Do not know why this was done by the re-enactors.

Rammer was always on the right hand side as for the majority that is the strong hand. In French drill that was copied from the Austrian drill of the 7YW was on the right of the gun behind the rammer.

Comments upon the AnXI system are questionable and I can explain at length.
Stephen

Carojon,
If I understand it your mounting is per Nap at War. So I am surprised that the battery is only 2 pcs and not 3. Would this not make the frontage of the battery undersized in comparison to the other units?
curious as to why this direction taken…

MG

Summerfield's comments welcome as always.

I had never considered the potential risk of bringing up the ammo on the side where a chap was waving around a stick with a burning end.

Mind you, did not the British artillery do just that? The portfire was on the opposite side to French practice (at least I hope so, as my guns are all…well, both of them…. thus)

Spongeman always on the right in any army. The firer left side British, but on right for French. Loader from the left.

You are correct.

According to the manual exercise of the field pieces, the spunge/rammer is on the right, as is the gunner who carries the portfire and fires the piece. The ammunition handler is on the left of the piece.

The British manual exercise is the same with the exception that the piece is fired from the left.