"What Is Happening to Poland’s Military?" Topic

"Exactly one year ago to the day, Poland's minister of defense, Antoni Macierewicz, was quoted as saying he wanted to grow Poland's army from 100,000 to 150,000. He called it "the minimum which is necessary to respond to military threats."

Macierewicz did add 50,000 troops. But they did not join the military, per se. Rather, they were considered a separate entity — volunteer troops to trained and ready in three years and equipped with Polish-made materials; who focus not on operational maneuvers, but on local tasks; and who are not in the military structure, but are answerable to the Ministry of Defense.

The territorial defense brigades were one part of a larger change in Poland over the past year. It included the government returning military manufacturing to Poland and giving more control to the Ministry of Defense. Yet as Warsaw and the world looks ahead to an incoming U.S. president who has been openly critical of NATO, the reforms also perhaps have undermined Poland's own national defense in the process.

In addition to the territorial defense brigades, the return of Polish military manufacturing makes sense in terms of domestic politics, said Marek Swierczynski, senior analyst at Polityka Insight. But it is less logical in terms of geopolitics — namely, the always-looming threat of Russia and need to meet certain NATO standards, particularly at an uncertain time…."
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Amicalement
Armand

Armand your Freed! Hope it wasnt too rough in there, I mean the chow by the way.

All kinds of weird things are happening in Poland – they don't seem to have taken to democracy as well as others for some reason.

I think weird things are happening in Poland because Russia is swaggering around the neighborhood brandishing tank brigades.

they don't seem to have taken to democracy as well as others for some reason.

That wasn't fair. We have longer democratic tradition then most of Europe. We have first European constitution (second in the world after USA). We have ennobled nonchristened Jews 300 hundered years before baron Rotschild. We have elected kings , even women (yes, as a king of Poland), for centuries. Women have full voting rights before GB or USA.

Nothing wrong happen in Poland. Democracy works perfectly. Polish "Republicans" (suppported by USA and Israel) decisively defeated Polish "Democrats" (supported by Germany, Brussel, Russia, international corporations and media leftist establishment), thanks to revealed megacorruption.

It's just influencial rich group (as well as some international corporations) is screaming due to de-corruption process.

We have saying in Poland: pigs squeal the loudest when detached from the trough.

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And in case of Polish military, quite a lot of very good thing happens. 100% of military acquiring budget was spent fo 2016 for first time in this millenium (always there wre some "savings"). There will be nearly hundred thousand reservists (like National Guard, trained specifically against "green men" and Specnaz). New missiles for F-16 and for an army. Lot of new equipment. Army is more then happy.

As a reservist I would say that our army is as strong as never in the last 30 years. Stronger than Germany.

the always-looming threat of Russia

How many brigades/divisions can Russia realistically stuff into the Kaliningrad area without it clearly being an imminent invasion force? Probably less than whatever Poland could mass for its defense. Likewise, I suspect trains of Russian tanks passing through Belarus towards the Polish border would be equally noticeable.

Umpapa – maybe I'm being unfair.

And yet you have had 26 years of democracy.

By 9172 the West Germans were making a better job of it than you seem to be.

Turning the public TV service into a propaganda tool of the ruling party, undermining the independence of the supreme court authorities, proposing government or church control over who is allowed to protest…

None of this looks good – though admittedly I'm going from discussions with Polish friends here and I don't know what their political bias is.

Everyone has their own idea as to what constitutes democracy.

The fact is, every faction in a country has it's own agenda. Likewise, every country has it's own agenda. If something happens elsewhere that doesn't match 'your' point of how 'it' should work… 'they don't seem to have taken to democracy as well as others for some reason.' is the kind of response that you will get.

(Not having a go at the response – just a comment that these things are a matter of perspective and that everyone has a different perpective.)

Trying and Failing at Democracy seems to be better than succeeding at some of the other forms.

discussions with Polish friends

95% of Poles will tell You the same story as mine. I am truly sorry, I am afraid You were misinformed.

And I am in no way supporter of neither previous nor current governements – I have another horse in this race. Amicus Plato, sed magis amica veritas.

Turning the public TV service into a propaganda tool of the ruling party

It was such for a last 25 years. Like BBC became today, as some woudl argue. We never have independent public TV. Before 2016 it was even worse, for a opinion of 60% of population was excluded from any TV at all (as all private TV channels are either liberal-leftist or postcommunist). Now You can watch several TVs and have different points of view

undermining the independence of the supreme court authorities

…what was done by previous government in form of voting 5 new constitutional judges illegally waaay too early before their predecessors terms of office ends (breaking Constitution, which was declared by Court itself). To sum it up – previous government was trying to stole 5 seats in the court from current coalition.

BTW, the Constitutional Court issue has been finally solved, if You haven't noticed.

proposing government control over who is allowed to protest…

… which was done by PREVIOUS government, not this one…

Previous leftist government was using secret police agents against legal demonstration, kicking and shooting legal demonstrators with rubber bullets.

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Previous leftist government had stifled free speech:

In May 2011, the ABW (polish Internal Security Agency) conducted a dawn raid on the home of the owner of AntyKomor.pl, a satirical website critical of Polish president Bronisław Komorowski, citing that the website was in breach of Article 135 of the Polish Penal Code for insulting the president. First-instance court had sentenced Frycz to 15 months of restricted liberty.

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In June 2014, the ABW conducted a raid on editorial office of "Wprost" newspaper, after "Wprost" published stenographic records of private conversations between country officials implicating them in many unconstitutional acts and bribery. The ABW used physical force on newspapers editor-in-chief Sylwester Latkowski in an attempt to illegally seize his laptop computer, after he refused to give it away without court warrant.

On those published tapes You can hear amongst others:
- how Minister of Internal Security is criminally conspiring with obligatory independent chief of Polish National Bank about deal: printing more money before election to help previous government for a price of getting rid of Minister of Finance (wchich deal was finalized, MoF was changed according to wishes of chief of Bank)
- how chief of Central Anticorruption Bureau informs vice-Prime Minster that his chief, Minister of Internal Security, ordered secret police to set fire under Russian Embassy during legal polish biggest march during Indepedence Day – so to accuse opposition, which happened in reality
etc, etc.

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or church control over who is allowed to protest…

????? May I ask for a source of such absurdly nonsense?
The church has nothing to do with neither the government nor coalition – church is pissed off by current government amongst other by voting against (proposed in citizen initiative) changes of abortion law (which law is unchanged for last 20 years).

Poland has a lot of problems (f.ex. ineffective legal system or too many red tape/regulations or the fact that 80% of newspapers are owned by German corporations), but luckily we do no not have deficits of democracy (like Brussels), free speach (like Germany after censorship of Cologne last New Year) or military (like most of West Europe).

By 1972 the West Germans were making a better job of it than you seem to be.

Please don't show us Germany as an example. By 1972 SS Gruppenführer Heinz Reinefarth, buther of Warsaw, was retiring with General's pension after parliamentary membership:
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You are plainly misled. Please forgive me if you recept me as angry (even I am angry) – I would never dare to admonish anyone about governing his own country. Especially noone in the country viewing my country as co-responsible for a loss of freedom and democracy. link

Why did conservatives win in 2015? Because, 25 years after communism fell, salaries in Poland are still less than one-third of what they are in Holland or Germany. Because of two-digit unemployment during the eight-year tenure of the liberal Civic Platform. Because two million young people left Poland in search of work in recent years. Because two-thirds of enterprises that manufacture Polish exports are in foreign hands, and profits go abroad instead of into workers' salaries. Because three-fourths of Polish newspapers are owned by German media companies. Because the liberal government stopped the vetting of former communist officials and retained them in their previous positions. Poles voted the way they did because they were fed up with the government that in their opinion served the interests of Brussels and Berlin.

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Yes, we (>90% of us) are fed up at previous government (previous ruling party has currently several percent of popular support). They will never return, whatever the Berlin would wish for. I hope we change current so-so government for a better one in the future, but for now current government is doing exactly what the >90% of Poles want. Which is what the democracy is about, isnt it?

It's good they have a plan.

Granted, not a very good one, but there is room for improvement.

Umpapa – that Poland has never had independent state TV (and the BBC is independent – everyone thinks it's biased against them) rather proves my point about Poland still lacking basic democratic structures.

I might be wrong is ascribing that to the current government but still, it doesn't look good.

If the German example offends, my apologies but it's the best one I can find of a country bootstrapping itself into democracy before 1988…

Of course all of eastern Europe is hamstrung, I'd have thought, by exporting vast quantities of talent to the West to clean for us and wait tables… hence I share your apparently ambivalent view of the EU.

Ah yes. UK folks critiquing Poland again. Perhaps getting ready to abandon it to the Russians (again!)?

Be fair in 1945 it's not like we were actually able to stop Stalin was it?

And I think since 1988 we've made amends somewhat…

Stu, you think the current administration here in the US is democratic? I'd say no. You would say yes. Your opinion and Umpapa's differ. Personally, I'll take the person living there and seeing how democracy works over friends trying to tell you what it is like.

Given we're about to have a change of government, I'll reserve judgement but my gut feeling isn't good.

Note my friends are actually Polish… it's not like they're just picking stuff up form the news.

It's not like the EU sets up enquiries into the state of a members' democracy on a whim…

It's not Hungary, but its not good.

Also, from direct family experience, not necessarily a friendly place to visit if not lily white and/or gay… but that goes for a lot of places.

Partially it is just geographic trends:

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Also, from direct family experience, not necessarily a friendly place to visit if not lily white and/or gay… but that goes for a lot of places.

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Great Britain should prey for longevity of current Polish government – its only ally in EU during those difficult Brexit negotiations (they are in the same faction in Europarliament, ECR). Any new Polish government will be definitely less pro-British.