"1st Foot regiment for waterloo - 2nd battalion flag ?" Topic

Hi, I want to do a British 1st Foot regiment for waterloo and I'm looking for a flag.
The Order of Battle lists 2nd and 3rd Battalions at waterloo, but NapFlags has the 1st and 3rd Battalion flags.

Does any one know which is right? And if 2nd/3rd battalion, does any one know what the 2nd battalion flag looked like ?

I'm wondering if Nap Flags just has a typo and their flag is really for 2nd Battalion?
I quite like the idea of having a white rose on the flag.

(oh and whilst I'm at it, did they actually wear bearskin hats at waterloo?)

I would ask NapFlags but my guess would be that they have used the source they had, which gave the 1st but not the 2nd.

Have you seen the Cent Jours page on this?
link

The consensus around bearskins is that they were not worn on campaign.

Pontius Pilate's Bodyguard certainly did not wear bearskins at Waterloo….neither did the Guards.

On the Allied side, in bearskin hats…..infantry….. Maybe some Pioneers of Allied units? The Nassau chaps who featured at Hougoumont…

Plenty of Cavalry of course. Hussars, RNDBs, HA trumpeters for Netherlands.

and do note in the Mt St Jean link above, the colours should be the other way around. Unless a Guards unit, the Union Jack (the King's Colour) is in the place of honour….right side….the regimental colour (the one with the little union jack top next to staff) to the left

How did you get the flags to show up on Cent Jours page ?

If I select the unit I just get the uniforms? Also they have a totally different colour flag to NapFlags :-( Is the Cent Jours resource more likely to be correct ?
(I can cut and paste in paint if need be)

You mean this one:

link

Third Bn. minus the Waterloo battle honor.

Only the grenadiers of the 1st Royals would have worn the bearskin cap, and perhaps the pioneers but I believe that was up to the colonels of individual regiments. However, as Cuirassier has said, bearskins probably hadn't been worn in the field since the American War, except perhaps by drummers of some regiments into the 1790s. Somebody may know.

Were you perhaps getting mixed up with the 1st Regiment of Foot Guards? The above applied for them as well. They, of course, were authorised to wear bearskins as a regimental distinction after the battle.

Unless you are with 28mm, the lettering for 2nd or 3rd Battalion should not matter because it can't be seen at the smaller scale.
Otherwise your plan to remove/adjust with cut and paste in paint will do since that is what I typically had done. All my flags are for the 1st Battalion, except the guards when necessary, with my collect set for 1809.

When looking at the page:
link
click on the etate-major tab to go to the colours.

BTW my 1809 unit has the older version with the sheep in the corners.
Good luck
MG

Sorry yes I mean the 1st regiment of Foot guards. The ones that saw off the Imperial Guard at waterloo. Is that not the same as "British 1st Foot regiment for waterloo" ? I'm a bit new to all this. I still cant find the flags on Cent Jours, am I being a bit dense ?

Did not Grenadier Companies of Guards wear the bearskin pre Waterloo…parade dress anyway? The difference after Waterloo was the bearskin for all companies…I think!

and heaven help anyone who then has to distinguish the Grenadier Company of any Guards regiment from the Grenadier Guards, as First were entitled after 1815….for stopping what were largely the Chasseurs a Pied anyway………funny old world

The 2nd battalion would have been the same as the 1st and third except that the 2nd Battalion would have had the sphinx motif on their colours as they were the only Battalion of the regiment to gain that honour. The 'original' extant 3rd Battalion kings and regimental colours that are preserved, show all the battle honours 'including Waterloo, Peninsula Niagra the Sphinx and palm fonds' emblazoned on them. So at least the Waterloo and palm-frond motifs were added at a later date.

The Battalion number is picked out in gold with the numerals in the Roman style and the word 'Battalion foreshortened and in capitals. The Kings colour has the same markings but smaller on the top part of the flag nearest the staff.

Here are those extant colours in question.

And here is a colour plate of the Kings colour above

If I was depicting all three battalions colours on the table-top, I would have only the 2nd Battalion's colours with the sphinx motif, the 1st and third without.

Paul :)

@HappyHiker

Some of your confusion comes from the 1st Regiment of Foot who are the premier line unit of the British Army and their regimental name is The Royal Scots. They are now amalgamated into The Royal Regiment of Scotland.

There are also the 1st Regiment of Foot Guards who are the senior regiment in the Guards Division and now known as the Grenadier Guards.

ah ok, I thought The Royal Scots were the 3rd regiment not the first.

I mean the '1st Regiment of Foot Guards now known as the Grenadier Guards.' They had 3 battalions each with separate flags. I think the 2nd/3rd battalions were at waterloo ( but not the first). So I want the 2nd Battalions flags (kings and regimental) but Nap flags only has the 1st/3rd.

The flag @4th Cuirassier linked to is completely different from Nap flags.(though I'm at work and I cant see it properly – was that for the Grenadier Guards?)

As far as I can tell all 3 regimental colours were a kinda purple with a very similar emblem on, and I suppose I'm getting way over my head trying to find the exact right emblem, but If I'm going to paint them all I might as well get the right flag. I'm a dab hand with cut and paste on a computer so any version of the flag will let me edit it, but the only source of flags I know is napflags.

Sorry for the confusion, and all help is appreciated.

@HappyHiker

More confusion (and more to come no doubt).

The 3rd regiment you are thinking of is the Third Regiment of Foot Guards and known as the Scots Guards and are now part of the Guards Division.

The 3rd Regiment of Foot are a line regiment known as The Buffs (buff facings) and now known as the Royal East Kent Regiment.

Confused?

Just wait until you get to facing colours, button colours, placement of colours etc.

And,

We all hope you can tell when the Union Flag is upside down or not and don't call it a Union Jack, that's really a navy thing.

'Regiment of Foot" is the designation for Line Regiments. The 1st Regiment of Foot was the Royal Scots, and it is their flag that 4th Cuirassier linked to. The correct designation for the Guards was 'Foot Guards' . They did not come in the numbering system for line regiments and were numbered separately. In the Napoleonic Wars there were three Guards Regiments: First Foot Guards, later the Grenadier Guards. The 2nd and 3rd Battalions fought at Waterloo. Second Foot Guards, 'Coldstream Guards'.
Third Foot Guards, 'Scots Guards'.

Irish and Welsh Guards were not founded until the 20th century, 1900 and 1915 respectively. Hope this helps.

Mollinary

Ok I get it now thank you, so it's the first foot guards flag for the 2nd battalion I want. Any takers?

(I've never understood the upside down union flag thing luckily they have writing on )

Ok finally managed to find the flag on the Cent Jours page, pesky little tab. I can paste that with the nap flags one and get a good version. 2nd battallion had the red rose not white by the looks of it. Thanks for all the help, and sorry for my confusion.

Someone should write a simple book on how to paint napoleonic minis!

My word that was exciting, if a little exhausting. So- to sum up. There's 'The Foot Guards'-

1st Regiment of Foot Guards < 1815 1st(Grenadier)Regiment of Foot Guards < 1877 Grenadier Guards

Coldstream Regiment of Foot Guards {Never '2nd'- "Nulli Secundus"- long story}

3rd Regiment of Foot Guards < 1831 Scots Fusilier Guards < 1877 Scots Guards

And the 'Regiments of Foot' beginning with the 'First and worst', 'Pontius Pilate's Bodyguard'-

1684.05.01 His Majesty's Royal Regiment of Foot
also known until 1751 by the names of colonels
1747 ranked as 1st Foot
1751.07.01 1st (Royal) Regiment of Foot
1812.02.11 1st Regiment of Foot (Royal Scots)
1821.08.29 1st, or The Royal Regiment of Foot
1871.12.15 1st, or The Royal Scots Regiment
1881.07.01 The Royal Scots (Lothian Regiment)

Clearly, the gentlemen at Horse Guards had nothing better to do than tinker with regimental titles. "Horse Guards"?- ah, well that's- another story.

This archived website is quite helpful for the basics, though not infallible. Some of the internal links don't work properly and you have to click about on the 'Wayback' timeline at the top of the page. Some external links are dead.

Regiments.org

link

The grenadiers of all regiments, including the Foot Guards were authorised to wear bearskin caps between 1768 and 1842, as were all ranks of the Fusilier regiments (until 1844). All ranks of the 1st Foot Guards were granted the privilege of wearing the grenadier cap for their role in the repulse of the Imperial Guard at Waterloo, even though the units directly involved turned out to have been not Grenadiers but Garde Chasseurs a Pied (wearing bearskin 'grenadier' caps. Keep up). In their caps the Grenadier Guards wore a white (British) grenadier plume, on the left hand side.

In 1831 both the Coldstream Regiment and the 3rd Regiment of Foot Guards were granted the title of 'Fusilier Guards', to mark their adoption of the bearskin cap. The Coldstream managed to avoid the new title while keeping the caps, with the addition of a red plume (as did French grenadiers) on the right hand side. The Scots Fusilier Guards had no plume at all.

This is why Alice in Wonderland could only have been written in England

@HappyHiker,

Welcome to Napoleonics wargaming. This actually has a double meaning. The first is a simple and sincere greeting to a newbie. The second is ironic, in that you really have no idea what you have gotten yourself into. You will soon learn what I mean if you keep reading the Napoleonic posts on TMP. And a simple book on how to paint Napoleonic minis is not going to happen for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there is no general agreement even on the best way to apply the paint (it really comes down to a matter of personal preference); secondly, the subject of which regiments wore what at any given place and time is incredibly complex, and some questions may never be resolved for lack of unambiguous period evidence.

What a brilliant sequence of responses here. It just shows what any newcomer is facing……..

and of course a jack is indeed a naval flag indeed!
Apologies…….Union Flag, King's Colour….unless Guards of course.

remember we are now talking about a Guards Colour party instead of 1st of Foot/Royal Scots. Any line unit, the thing that looks like the UK national flag is to the right and the regt flag to the left, as the unit faces forwards.

But hang on. In the Guards, the King's Colour is the purple thing described above, so it must go………..oh dear….

The purple thing is not the regt flag for the Guards….it is the King's Colour and goes on the right. The Union Flag is then the regt colour! Funny that……..so everything is reversed.

Simple really….

To add further fun to the topic, Foot Guards regiments of course did not actually have standing battalions of fixed composition at all. They had 30+ companies per regiment from which they assembled battalions ad hoc as required. To that extent they are the same as other British regiments, which were simply "regiments" rather than formations of several battalions. When they needed to provide troops for field service they generated the necessary 10 companies of 60 to 80 men and that became a tactical battalion. If they had to generate another one, they'd do so and the one overseas was then deemed to be the 1st and the one at home the 2nd.

You'd think with 3 battalions' worth of companies the Guards would therefore have had 3 light companies, one per battalion. But these are the Guards, so in fact at least one Guards regiment seems to have had an extra light company per battalion, meaning they had 33 from which to form three battalions. They then fielded 10-company battalions which included two light companies each, rather than one.

The "purple" flag is in fact "garter" blue, by the way; blue so dark it's pretty much black.

I have a comedy rant about Highland regiments too but that's way off topic…

Happy Hiker,

The broader part of the white St. Andrews saltire should be the upper portion next to the pole. It follows that the broader white part will then be under the diagonal red cross in the fly.

Ah! So the 2nd Battalion 1st Foot Guards was meant.

I have a description of the 2nd's flag though no illustration.

From: Flags and Standards of the Napoleonic Wars by Keith Over. page#19

"The Lieutenant-Colonel's, or 1st colour of the second battalion: Of crimson silk, bearing in the centre the Royal Cipher, reversed and interlace, crown over. A small union in the dexter canton"

So the 2nd Battalion flag would have looked like this.

link

Paul :)

Well I'm glad that's clear then 😳😳😳😳
It's all a bit confusing but as long as I get the basics right I'm not going to sweat it too much.

So regiment flag was the union flag, that does explain something else I was confused about too. And for the guards it goes on their left ? For everyone else the union flag goes on the units right?(the opposite of me looking at them? Kings colours to the units right) most photos of guard units on google don't do this, so now I feel all superior and knowledgable, thanks 😀

@dibble, that's a great flag thanks.

I've taken the flag picture away but added an excellent link to my last post.

Even better, photo realistic battle torn flags. Now I want all my flags to look like that ! – Though I hadn't realised each company had their own flag, now my head really is spinning.

That isn't battle damage. What that is, is artists over-paint. When the over-paint is trimmed away they will look like this.

Paul :)

Let's be honest, most will not be unduly bothered about details of flags and colour parties, but if you can get it right, why not make the extra effort so well done for going to all this trouble to ask.

The whole confusion stems over which is the King's Colour and which is the regimental flag of the two (the "Union Jack" and the coloured one, usually with a small "Union Jack" in the top staff corner. It is different for Guards compared with Line.

As the regt faces forwards, right of the Line is the honoured position (so Grenadiers right flank and King's colour right of the colour party.

So that means. Guards; the Crimson flag with battle honour on the right and the "Union Flag" on the left

For Line, the Union flag on the right and their regimental flag facing coloured thing on the left.

and they go in the front rank too!

I found it hard to find images from Google as, even with a 50% chance of getting it right…..few do

Below Guards, then line, then my own Lights

Thanks @deadhead, and yes understood and I will model them that way. I wish my painting was as tidy as yours mind.

Thanks, but look how many I did.

This is not a whole unit like the figures above.

I don't throw dice. I paint, look at, photograph, stick on a glass shelf and then put in the attic! (where most my collection now resides)

And me! I don't paint, collect or play.

Paul :)

Now that we are talking about the Guards…

Anyone want to mention that the Guards use a flag for each company and rotate their use for the Kings (now Queens) Colours when making up their battalions? And that it may be still unclear as to which of the 30 colours were used at Waterloo.

Yer kidding?

Seriously……

I thought we had this settled.

The message could be to steer clear of Guards or HLI (or indeed any unit in buff facings)…let's not mention the kilted Highlanders…….

The Colours served a purpose on a battlefield, as opposed to Horse Guards Parade. Everyone waving a bit of silk is asking for trouble.

Come on mate. Tell us. What actually looks right, if you have a line of Perrys or Victrix in 28mm…or the heretical figures in 15/18mm, meant to be Guards?

My idea is that…somewhere, near the centre…front rank….you have the crimson standard to the right and the thing that looks like the UK national flag, to the left.

OK, I say again, it may not matter to anyone and it is incredible that, on line, the vast majority of images have it the wrong way round…..when a dice throw should have said…..50/50……..never mind.

PS Dibble….if you don't paint, collect, play….er……?

Union Jack (Yeah he is right) to the right, the flag in regt facing colours to the left for the vast majority, but, Guards, Crimson standard to right and "Union Jack" to its left. Both in front rank!!!!!!

I cannot get folk to put the spongeman on the right of any cannon.. The Grenadier company right of the line etc…..let us try for the colours. There is an even chance you will get it right anyway!

@HappyHiker,

This whole business about the colours of the 2nd Bn./1st Foot Guards may be moot if you're intent on having a Waterloo unit. According to my source, they were not there. There is a Waterloo order of battle in the back of Philip Haythornthwaite's "Uniforms of Waterloo in Color" (New York City: Hippocrene Books, 1974); it says the whole 1st Division of Wellington's army, commanded by Major General Cooke, consisted of British foot guards. Major General Maitland's 1st Brigade contained the 1st and 3rd battalions of the First Foot Guards, while Major General Sir J. Byng's 2nd Brigade had the 2nd Bn./2nd (Coldstream) Guards and the 2nd Bn./3rd (Scots) Guards. A Guards brigade generally had only two battalions because they usually had a much greater numerical strength than a line battalion.

Haythornthwaite generally knew his stuff, but I would double check against other published versions of the order of battle, just in case an uncorrected typographical error got through.

deadhead

PS Dibble….if you don't paint, collect, play….er……?

….What do I do? I Read, study and collect lots of information.

Can I paint?

Yes!

Did I collect?

Yes!

I also gamed but I sold of my Hinchcliffe 25mm armies off way back in the early 80's

Paul :)

Outlaw tor

Now that we are talking about the Guards…

Anyone want to mention that the Guards use a flag for each company and rotate their use for the Kings (now Queens) Colours when making up their battalions? And that it may be still unclear as to which of the 30 colours were used at Waterloo.

link

Paul :)

Opps, such is the minefield, they rotate as the Regimental Colour. Sorry.

attila

Major General Maitland's 1st Brigade contained the 2nd and 3rd battalions of the First Foot Guards.
From Bowden & many other sources.

That British Empire site -in the last link- needs to be treated with caution.

I can't comment on the list of !st Foot Guards company colours but a phrase like "the 2nd (Coldstream) Guards was raised by Oliver Cromwell in 1650" – in the main article- is misleading, and on the face of it nonsense. The description of the Imperial Guard attack at Waterloo describes them all as Grenadiers, then omits reference to the 1st Guards being granted the title of 'Grenadiers' after the battle.

PS. I missed, at the bottom of the page.

"The Grenadier Guards

From 1881, the regiment was officially redesignated as the Grenadier Guards."

Unfortunately they got that wrong, too

Here's Keith Over's list for the Guard colours.

Anyone wanting an up-to-date history of the Guards should look no further than: The British grenadiers (350 years of the First Regiment of Foot Guards. 1656-2006). by Henry Hanning. It was £30.00 GBP when I brought it, but it is very well written and illustrated. A perfect companion to Barney White Spunner's Horse Guards tome.

Paul :)