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"Requesting Informatoin for Engen 1800" Topic


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HappyHussar21 Dec 2016 8:44 p.m. PST

I am researching the order of battle for the Austrian army for the Battle of Engen and 2nd Stockach and also Messkirch 1800. The order of battle information is very sketchy. I have even been hunting the old German books. There is just not much information where it regards the following:

1. I am trying to determine the brigade composition. Which units were in the brigades. The commanders are listed but not which units were under their command. Nafziger lists the names of the leaders and also a long list of units but there is no way to tell which of those units were under which commander's control.

2. The chronology. There is a good writeup for Messkirch but Engen in particular seems to lack a lot of detail.

3. The starting points. Again a good article on Messkirch helped me with that battle but Engen and 2nd Stockach lack this.

If anyone has put together a decent order of battle for these battles please get in touch with me. I would be deeply in your debt. If you can refer me to a site that has such that is great too.

Here are a few links that you might find of interest:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dispatches_by_William_Wickham_about_the_Battle_of_Moeskirch,_5_May_1800

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messkirch_1800_Order_of_Battle

napoleon-online.de/html/messkirch1800.html

I will share as much information as I gather with the folks on this forum. Its a real "egg hunt" trying to gather the OB data and start points of the formations for these more "obscure" battles.

HappyHussar21 Dec 2016 8:45 p.m. PST

LOL – sorry – I cant spell apparently – should be "information" (chuckles then signs up for Dumbbell English class)

Andrew Preziosi22 Dec 2016 2:21 a.m. PST

Did you try St. Cyr's works, he usually has OB's for both sides.

von Winterfeldt22 Dec 2016 5:22 a.m. PST

my hero Steven Smith, who was unfortunately kicked out of this forum – provided this

Battle of Engen 3 May 1800: link

2nd Battle of Stockach 1800: link link

Battle of Messkirch 5 May 1800: link
link
link
Anglo-Russian invasion of Holland 27 August to 19 November 1799:
link
The First Battle of Stockach 25 March 1799: link
Steve

von Winterfeldt22 Dec 2016 5:47 a.m. PST

you might find also something in the Campagne de Allemagne – tome 01 Picard

for download

link

go to page 499 – there is an extensive OdB – tell me how usefull this is

also the atlas with maps at

link

Andrew Preziosi22 Dec 2016 6:45 a.m. PST

Agree w/VonW.

HappyHussar22 Dec 2016 10:13 a.m. PST

Thanks for the information so far. I will recap on the information provided and where I am at now:

1. I had the Wiki links that Steve provided. Not sure what the Campaign in Holland 1799 has to do with this but thanks anyway! I have completed most of the work on that and one of my team members is helping me with the map for Noord-Holland.

2. von Windeterfeldt – nice document (Picard) – Nafziger's OB for the same date is almost identical but I will copy the one from Picard anyway. The text may also bring to light some of the locations of the formations.

3. I am unsure of which of St. Cyr's works is for this campaign. I dont have a list of his books handy. I will see if I can find a title among the many Wiki article sources or in other places.

Still hunting a more definitive OB. What I plan on doing is look over Digby Smith's regiment names and see if I can plug in a few of those for the ones in Picard/Nafziger that are just "Austrian Infantry" or "Dragoon" or "Unidentified Infantry Regiment" in the OB.

Thanks guys! If anyone else wants to add info please feel free to do so.

von Winterfeldt22 Dec 2016 12:20 p.m. PST

please let us know about your progress and finding, I keep looking for more sources – in case I run accross some, I will post them

Personal logo Dye4minis Supporting Member of TMP22 Dec 2016 3:50 p.m. PST

Have you looked at page 181 of "The Greenhill Napoleonic Wars Data Book" by Digby Smith (ISBN:1-85367-276-9)? He spells "Messkirch" "Mosskirch" (with an umla over the "o"- sorry forgot what combo of keys does that on an english keyboard)

Assume you are looking for those battles around Lake Konstanz? If so, this reference might answer some of your questions. It lists units present and under which commanders for both sides.

Hope this helps.

v/r
Tom

HappyHussar22 Dec 2016 11:31 p.m. PST

Thanks, Tom! Yes, The Data Book was also listed above as one of my sources. Again, he doesn't group the units by brigade but what I am doing now is creating a long list of units from the Picard/Nafziger OB listings and then cross referencing them with Smith's book. Some of the units were not at the battle.

The listings include "Mainz Regiment" and "Mainz Jagers" units of which I know nothing about. If these infantry regiment was part of the regular Austrian army I am not aware of it.

Mainz tried to go independent but the Prussians took it back. Eventually Napoleon grabbed it but during this period it is part of the "Palatinate" area I believe.

I also plan on looking over Dodge's book on the campaign. He may shed some light on the locations of the formations at the start of the Battle of Engen. I pretty much have the starting locations for the formations at Messkirch. Just have to iron out the formations' unit composition.

von Winterfeldt22 Dec 2016 11:52 p.m. PST

Yes Messkirch or Mösskirch (Moeskirch) – Steve Smith was so kind to send another list of usefull downloads

again Picard and a lot of other stuff, more to be found in the ÖMZ

Hathi trust access only from the other side of the atlantic.

Picard, Ernest (1863-1913). La campagne de 1800 en Allemagne. Le passage du Rhin. 3 vol. 1907-1909: (XV-509, IV-388 p.-[14] p. de pl.) : cartes ; in-8:
Vol. 1 1907 XV-509 p.: link
Vol. 2 1909 IV-388 p.: link
Atlas 1909 [14] p. de pl.: link


Picard, Ernest (1863-1913). Hohenlinden. 1909. 499 p.:
link
Schlacht bei Mösskirch den 5ten Mai 1800 / / 1857: link
A Map: link

picture

Schlacht bei Mösskirch, den fünften Mai 1800 |Schlacht bei Mösskirch, den 5ten Mai 1800 |Bataille de Mösskirch, le 5 mai 1800 |Schlacht bei Mösskirch / Kausler, Franz Georg Friedrich ¬von¬|Herder, Benjamin / 1831:
picture

Battle of Stockach 1800:
link
link
Carrion de Nisas, Henri-François de. Campagne des Français en Allemagne: année 1800; Moreau, général en chef. [1829]. 433 S., [2, 8 gef.] Bl. +: link
Map:
picture

Karl Mras. Österreichische militärische Zeitschrift, Jahrgang 1836-1. "Der Feldzug 1800 in Deutschland nach östreichischen [sic] Originalquellen":
Paul Azan: „La Bataille de Messkirch" in Revue d´Histoire Nr. 98, Februar, Nr. 99, Mars 1909: -476. Reinhold: Pdf file with both parts attached.
Günther: Geschichte des Feldzuges von 1800. Frauenfeld 1893: link
Philippe-Paul de Ségur. Lettre sur la campagne du Général MacDonald dans les Grisons en 1800 et 1801. 1802. 140 p.: link

HappyHussar23 Dec 2016 12:07 a.m. PST

Did a quick read through of Picard's work tonight. Unfortunately the narrative ends before the Battle of Engen. I am wondering if he wrote a second volume. Now on the hunt …

HappyHussar23 Dec 2016 12:57 a.m. PST

Thanks so much for the additional maps. I looked through Picard's atlas and copied several of the maps from it. Looks like these others will really help out too.

Cant thank you folks enough. I have covered many of the Napoleonic campaigns, just finished up with Campaign Marengo and all that went in that title. This new one is a real challange because folks dont play the battles much. Thus its been heavily neglected. Maybe someday someone will translate some of these older works into English.

von Winterfeldt23 Dec 2016 5:56 a.m. PST

the rest is in the second volume of "Picard" – see the link for Hathi Trust – the author is by Azan – the battles that you mention will be covered

Azan, Paul Jean Louis (Besançon 1874 – Lons-le-Saunier 1951). La campagne de 1800 en Allemagne. Tome 2. Du Rhin a Ulm. Paris. 1909. 426 p.: "Picard. Vol.2. 1909. –
Author Bio: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Azan

As mentioned this volume is available by Hathi Trust – but you need to live at the right side of the Atlantic to be able to see and maybe download it.

Andrew Preziosi23 Dec 2016 10:05 a.m. PST

Gallica has V1 and the Atlas

link

IF someone can download v2 of Picard and upload it to a sharing site, we can all have it, it IS public domaine material!

Andrew Preziosi23 Dec 2016 11:09 a.m. PST

Here's the relevent book on the campaign regarding St. Cyr.

link

And the entire suite itself…

link

You can find the following sets, online, for Free, via Archive.org, Google Books or Gallica…and probably some other site too:

Mémoires sur les campagnes des armées de Rhin et de Rhin-et-Moselle de 1794 à 1797

Journal des opérations de l'armée de Catalogne en 1808 et 1809

HappyHussar23 Dec 2016 12:15 p.m. PST

Question on the center map in the images shown above: is there a key for the symbols? I pretty much can figure most of it out but a key would be handy ;)

I looked at the reference point but didn't see one. Might work one out on my own and post it here (to share with group).

von Winterfeldt23 Dec 2016 12:51 p.m. PST

you mean the middle map – symbols are on the right hand side

light blue = French
red = Austrians and Bavarians

but I agree it would be good to now what AA for example means, maybe an explanation is found in the text of the book from where the map is??


Schlacht bei Mösskirch, den fünften Mai 1800 |Schlacht bei Mösskirch, den 5ten Mai 1800 |Bataille de Mösskirch, le 5 mai 1800 |Schlacht bei Mösskirch / Kausler, Franz Georg Friedrich ¬von¬|Herder, Benjamin / 1831:

picture

maybe see this link, page 822

link

von Winterfeldt23 Dec 2016 1:53 p.m. PST

IF someone can download v2 of Picard and upload it to a sharing site, we can all have it, it IS public domaine material!

There you live in the US you should have access by

link

Andrew Preziosi23 Dec 2016 2:11 p.m. PST

I'm not a member, that's where this conversation began…

HappyHussar23 Dec 2016 11:03 p.m. PST

von Winter … no, I mean the letters that are by the troops blocks … like A, B, C etc. I saw the legend already ….

von Winterfeldt24 Dec 2016 12:51 a.m. PST

Yes you find them in the link on page 822 I provided which is the atlas to the maps and which gives a concise history of the battle as well, for all who can read German and or French (in both languages) – plenty of information about a lot of different battles throughout the ages

link

von Winterfeldt24 Dec 2016 1:02 a.m. PST

also thanks to Steven Smith more links
in case you cannot access hathi trust – you find those works also on books.google.com usually for download

"Der Feldzug 1800 in Deutschland nach östreichischen [sic] Originalquellen" in the Österreichische militärische Zeitschrift, Jahrgang:
1836/1, S. 243-274: link
1836/2, S. 3-30, 294-312: link
1836/3, S. 172-192, 227-256: link
1836/4, S. 3-38, 194-224: link

HappyHussar24 Dec 2016 10:38 p.m. PST

von Winterfeldt – thanks for the link to the key. Much appreciated. However, the links in your other thread response .. any that use the old German letters … impossible for me to read. I have an eye disorder … and I can never make out what the letters mean. My eyes are so worn out from painting miniatures, reading and PCs that any huge grouping of words wont work for me. I even tried using the Text Only view… just looks like a forest of letters to me.

Thanks to all that contributed. I believe I can go on what I have now. Unless someone comes upon a detailed order of battle listing that is …

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