| Hafen von Schlockenberg | 19 Dec 2016 2:09 p.m. PST |
link link No telling what the effects will be. |
| Weasel | 19 Dec 2016 2:24 p.m. PST |
Probably less than the more alarmist will suggest but a bad thing regardless of individual beliefs. |
| Cyrus the Great | 19 Dec 2016 2:33 p.m. PST |
I'm surprised it took this long.
I found this quote interesting: "This attack shows the most disgusting and barbaric face of terrorism," Turkey's foreign ministry said, vowing to fight terrorism alongside Russia and its other allies
To my mind, not by half! |
peterx  | 19 Dec 2016 3:23 p.m. PST |
Does it remind any TMPers of a certain assassination of the Arch-Duke Ferdinand and the start of a certain world war? |
| skippy0001 | 19 Dec 2016 3:38 p.m. PST |
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| dwight shrute | 19 Dec 2016 3:59 p.m. PST |
I expect the ''KGB'' will be sending someone a DHL package with testicles in very soon . |
 Legion 4 | 19 Dec 2016 4:01 p.m. PST |
Well it seems the assassin was in some sort of Turkish Police Force. Was quoted saying Allah Akbar, Remember Syria, Remember Aleppo … according to all the current reports. Seems he was upset about the Russian bombings/attacks on fellow moslems in Syria. I guess it was inevitable … |
| Zoltar | 19 Dec 2016 4:40 p.m. PST |
It also appears that he switched between Turkish and Arabic (specific prayers) which tells a little more… |
| Legion 4 | 19 Dec 2016 4:45 p.m. PST |
Yes, we infidels must remember Turks [and Iranians] are not arabs … but moslems … |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 19 Dec 2016 4:56 p.m. PST |
This isn't altogether unexpected because policies have consequences. The US policy of deposing Gaddafi cost the life of the US ambassador there too not very long ago. |
| Mako11 | 19 Dec 2016 6:27 p.m. PST |
It wasn't the policy that caused those deaths in Libya…….. |
| Lion in the Stars | 19 Dec 2016 7:29 p.m. PST |
Does it remind any TMPers of a certain assassination of the Arch-Duke Ferdinand and the start of a certain world war? Yup. I expect the ''KGB'' will be sending someone a DHL package with testicles in very soon . Be surprised if it's only testicles. I somehow suspect that said package/message will be delivered by about a hundred Spetsnaz. |
| kiltboy | 19 Dec 2016 7:48 p.m. PST |
I think it is a terrible thing to kill an Ambassador. I have read that the Ambassador was highly regarded as well. |
| zoneofcontrol | 19 Dec 2016 7:58 p.m. PST |
"The US policy of deposing Gaddafi cost the life of the US ambassador there too not very long ago." Sorry, but that was caused by a you tube video. |
| Mako11 | 19 Dec 2016 8:08 p.m. PST |
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| RebelPaul | 20 Dec 2016 7:18 a.m. PST |
This plays right into putin's hands. It will give him the excuse to go after Turkey AGAIN! |
| Legion 4 | 20 Dec 2016 8:29 a.m. PST |
It wasn't the policy that caused those deaths in Libya……..
Yep … it was a US leadership Frakk' up. Sorry, but that was caused by a you tube video.
Yes, the US civilian leadership has said that … repeatedly. And they would not lie … The Russians/Putin already said there would be payback. Which may move Daesh to a priority target. Whether the assassin was affiliated of not. But to Putin it seems an islamist is an islamist is an islamist … Which many not be too far from off … |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 20 Dec 2016 8:30 a.m. PST |
Actually Turkish-Russian relations have improved markedly after the SU-24 shoot-down over a year ago. Erdogan had personally apologized and Putin was among the first to show support for the president during the failed coup attempt earlier this year. |
| USAFpilot | 20 Dec 2016 9:00 a.m. PST |
Russia and the United States have a common enemy in radical Islamists. It is far past time that we join forces to eradicate this evil. |
| Legion 4 | 20 Dec 2016 9:05 a.m. PST |
Actually Turkish-Russian relations have improved Yes, that was mentioned in the media. The Russians would like nothing better than to pull the Turks out of NATO. Then start sending forces to places like Incirlik, etc., … Would Russia "overlook" their ambassador's death to get a strategic advantage ? We all know that answer. The US did the same in Libya … And we see how well that worked out. But Putin is not like the current civilian leader in the USA. Realistic, pragmatic, etc., FYI I'm referring to Putin. But there are a lot of other "islamists" that can be blamed for the Russian's loss(es), etc. … It was reported Putin said he'd "be turning up the heat" on the terrorists, etc. Do the Russians still use something like Napalm ? Russia and the United States have a common enemy in radical Islamists. It is far past time that we join forces to eradicate this evil.
Yes, we know how effective that alliance in WWII was … To both nations' advantage, etc., … But current US leadership is not the same as those that were in office in 1940. That has become abundantly clear. While Putin is still old school KGB. |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 20 Dec 2016 10:12 a.m. PST |
It is far past time that we join forces to eradicate this evil. I (and maybe the incoming POTUS) agree wholeheartedly, but there are too many forces at work against it on both sides of the aisle who have interests in maintaining their narrative of Russia as the "evil empire." The globalist establishment in the US and Western Europe enjoyed expanding its liberalist world order around the globe through both soft power and intervention with little opposition until Putin pushed back in Georgia and the Ukraine, so any attempt to improve relations with Russia will be controversial. The late diplomat and father of Cold War Containment George Kennan warned against Nato expansion and a foreign policy that is "utopian, moralistic and self-righteous." Too bad his words have fallen on deaf ears. |
| ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 20 Dec 2016 11:01 a.m. PST |
Looks like a lone wolf, and I don't read too much into the statement that 'God is great'. Couple of unsubstantiated reports that the shooter, a policeman, was either a victim of the post-coup purges or involved in the suppression of demonstrations outside the Russian embassay. Given the involved parties are Turkey and Russia the truth may be hard to come by…. |
| Col Durnford | 20 Dec 2016 12:07 p.m. PST |
How many lone wolves does it take to make a pack? |
| USAFpilot | 20 Dec 2016 2:18 p.m. PST |
so any attempt to improve relations with Russia will be controversial. Good thing we will soon have someone in charge who is not afraid of a little controversy. The liberal media is going to attack him daily for the next four years anyway, so he might as well do what you can to develop mutually beneficial relations with the Russians. On a side note, when I was a cadet at the Air Force Academy back in the late '80's, I thought then that I might have to fight the Soviets one day and that notion really didn't bother me. It was what I trained to do. Now that I'm older I ask myself why shouldn't we strive to develop good relations with the Russians. They have massive natural resources and could be a great trading partner with the US. Why does the US constantly antagonize the Russians with all the rhetoric. |
| Legion 4 | 20 Dec 2016 2:42 p.m. PST |
I thought then that I might have to fight the Soviets one day and that notion really didn't bother me. Same here … They were the biggest threat, etc. Nothing personal … They have massive natural resources and could be a great trading partner with the US. I think maybe if we try a different approach with the Russians/Putin. Something they understand –  We make deals advantageous to both the US and Putin … I mean Russia … Plus we have no way to get to the ISS without the Russians taking us there. At like $1 USD million a passenger … and a foreign policy that is "utopian, moralistic and self-righteous." Too bad his words have fallen on deaf ears. Amen … And I'm still not sure if the current US elected leadership has any policies that would actually be considered geopolitical … "utopian, moralistic and self-righteous." Good description ! I may borrow it. I know a number of individuals on TMP that that could apply to …  Thanks ! |
| Weasel | 20 Dec 2016 4:24 p.m. PST |
You know it's a cold day in hell when the right wing parrots the talk of the extreme left on Putin.
I suppose all those little green men in Ukraine were just defending themselves after all.
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| Legion 4 | 20 Dec 2016 4:27 p.m. PST |
No one really said they would … but just incase …  |
| Grignotage | 20 Dec 2016 4:31 p.m. PST |
The quote from Kennan ya'll keep throwing around came from the same guy who penned the Long Telegram in '46/'47, which put into words the us-vs.-them, zero sum struggle between the US and USSR and became the guiding concept for containment. Amazing the flip on Russia attitudes we're seeing here. |
| Legion 4 | 20 Dec 2016 4:36 p.m. PST |
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| Oh Bugger | 20 Dec 2016 5:16 p.m. PST |
A smart boy writes link Cockburn imo is the best Western Journo we have. |
 ochoin | 20 Dec 2016 7:32 p.m. PST |
Amazing the flip on Russia attitudes We have a saying in Scotland: "He who sups with the devil should have a long spoon".
Short term gain for long term pain, if you prefer. utopian, moralistic and self-righteous." I could certainly apply "Dystopian, immoral & self-righteous" to a number of individuals on TMP too. |
| wolfgangbrooks | 20 Dec 2016 8:36 p.m. PST |
I prefer "fluid and self-serving morality" myself. :) Russia's going to be running roughshod over Europe for the next four years and our government is just going to smile and continue counting money. And that after eight years of saying Obama was weak for negotiating with Russia. Sadly, conservative double-think no longer surprises me. |
| Grignotage | 20 Dec 2016 9:32 p.m. PST |
remember it's not negotiating, it's making a TREMENDOUS deal, just the very best deal, people. |
| wolfgangbrooks | 20 Dec 2016 9:55 p.m. PST |
And don't forget we need to pre-pardon and change our ethics laws to reward those who make all those deals possible. :) |
| ochoin | 21 Dec 2016 3:05 a.m. PST |
don't forget we need to pre-pardon and change our ethics laws to reward those who make all those deals possible Does US law countenance such things? Surely not though I am generally unfamiliar with US customs & precedents. The classic case is where "The accused was merely following the orders of a superior officer". I know International law generally doesn't agree with this: the 1474 case of Peter von Hagenbach as the first instance of the case in which this argument fell on deaf ears and even that the trial was the first, ever, international criminal trial, or the first trial that considered the theoretical concept of what would come to be known as a war crime. Von Hagenbach was born in about 1420, a native of Alcace, France and became a favourite of Charles the Bold (aka Charles the Terrible). "In 1474, while occupying the town of Brisach, the troops of Peter Von Hagenbach pillaged the town and murdered and raped civilians. "Von Hagenbach was accused of crimes against the laws of God and humanity and tried before a tribunal which included judges from Alsace, judges from Switzerland and judges from elsewhere in the Holy Roman Empire. "In his defence, he argued that he had followed superior orders. The court denied this plea, convicted him of the crime and executed him." Von Hagenbach died on May 9, 1474, drawn and quartered. Changing laws to benefit the guilty would surely be an odd, retrograde step: the sort of thing you'd only expect to find in North Korea or Russia. |
| wolfgangbrooks | 21 Dec 2016 4:04 a.m. PST |
Well, you're half right. link The PE and most of his cabinet have considerable conflicts of interest, especially when it comes to Russia, and no one in a position to do anything about it cares. Russia wants oil, it gets oil, WH cabinet profits, Russia gets out of the hole it dug itself into trying regain Superpower status. Maybe the assassination attempt will be used to draw concessions from Turkey, get a tighter grip on their little buddy. Sweetheart deals on oil and shipping access, maybe a pincer adding pressure on Georgia. Forgiveness is a potential diplomatic weapon as well. |
| Legion 4 | 21 Dec 2016 8:28 a.m. PST |
utopian, moralistic and self-righteous." I could certainly apply "Dystopian, immoral & self-righteous" to a number of individuals on TMP too.
I keep a list of both and other types as well … Dystopian is very much too strong a term, more like realistic and pragmatic. As is immoral in this context … again realistic and pragmatic … But all this is in the eyes of the beholder. Based on their life experiences, etc. Some are not only products of their environment but victims of it. You could say the same of the "self-righteous" as well, IMO … |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 21 Dec 2016 9:03 a.m. PST |
Russia's going to be running roughshod over Europe… Sorry, but the only country being run roughshod over has been Russia through more than two decades of Nato expansion. The only surprise is that it took them so long to finally push back against the liberalist world order. Any self-respecting Russian nationalist who sees Russia as a regional power would do exactly the same thing. If it's not Putin it'll be someone else. link You know it's a cold day in hell when the right wing parrots the talk of the extreme left on Putin. Yeah. Neocons and liberals disagree on a lot of things but Russia it appears. |
| ochoin | 21 Dec 2016 12:48 p.m. PST |
Well, Ralph, we may have to disagree here.
The "old Life Experience" shtik again?
If Life has dealt you poor cards, it doesn't mean every game is a losing hand.
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| Weasel | 21 Dec 2016 12:52 p.m. PST |
the only country being run roughshod over has been Russia through more than two decades of Nato expansion
Pictured: Ukraine NOT being run roughshod over apparently. |
| Hafen von Schlockenberg | 21 Dec 2016 1:22 p.m. PST |
Hmm, I seem to have provided Dawghouse bait. I should have known better. To address one question from Ochoin,yes,Gerald Ford famously "pre-pardoned" Richard Nixon,thus avoiding further dragging out our "long national nightmare". So there is precedent. |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 21 Dec 2016 1:26 p.m. PST |
Ukraine NOT being run roughshod over apparently. Then don't foment the Maidan Revolution supporting Ukrainian nationalists (incl. Nazis) and overthrow a popularly elected pro-Russian president for our own globalist agenda. The western effort to break Ukraine from Russia's orbit smacks of total disregard for geopolitics and gave Russia the perfect excuse to take Crimea back (to prevent its Black Sea fleet from being cut off). PDF link It isn't that hard to stay neutral. For all his faults, the new PE at least listens to foreign policy experts like Kennan, Kissinger and Mearsheimer. Hmm, I seem to have provided Dawghouse bait. I should have known better. Not at all. These diversions are known to happen from time to time and cover familiar territory on the Ultramodern Warfare board. TMP link |
| ochoin | 21 Dec 2016 1:57 p.m. PST |
The US has a sad history of choosing allies based on "pragmatic" considerations, Ralph. link Will Putin turn out better or worse than Osama or Saddam? |
| ROUWetPatchBehindTheSofa | 21 Dec 2016 2:09 p.m. PST |
Yeesh, I wouldn't have thought RTVs POV would be quite so popular on TMP given the US membership bias. There a few nutters who turned to it where I live because it's not biased like the BBC (no really!). The only country that's run roughshod over Russia is, well, Russia or rather Putin and the Oligarchs. Neo-liberal global economics dosen't really give a rats a*** about Russia, or indeed any other country. The idea I've seen floated by some on the progressive left that Putin is somehow standing against economic globalisation makes me throw up in my mouth. Nor do I believe that 'the west' has been deliberately dragging Soviet satalite nations in to NATO. They asked and many with good reason based on even a cursory examination of the last 100 odd years of history. Though I don't believe that Russia can run roughshod over Europe, except in the diplomatic game playing sense, its not in great place economically or socially. Putin has created this giant political squirrel narrative of oppressed Russia standing strong against the world, but now has the problem of keeping that narrative fed. Things could get interesting, in the Chinese proverbial sense, when his power wains, because to keep the beast fed the next person in charge may not be strong enough to keep control of nationalist sentiment and be stupid enough to really invade somewhere to preserve their position… As for Turkey and Russia, certainly no love lost historically, but notable that Erdogan suddenly wanted to be mates with Putin once it was becoming patently clear he's a would be dictator and rapidly making the EU nervous. The incident dosen't seem to have done any more damage to relations. I think this thread would have gone very different had the ambassador been shot by someone from one of the non-Muslim groups that Putin has aggrevated… |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 21 Dec 2016 3:14 p.m. PST |
Nor do I believe that 'the west' has been deliberately dragging Soviet satalite nations in to NATO.Putin has created this giant political squirrel narrative of oppressed Russia standing strong against the world, but now has the problem of keeping that narrative fed. Kennan, Kissinger et al would disagree. And they've been formulating foreign policy long before Putin has been pushing his narrative. The fact is that after the fall of the Soviet Union, the west's foreign policy has been Idealpolitik-driven rather than based on Realpolitik. Francis Fukuyama's 'The End of History and the Last Man' may have had something to do with it. I wrote a paper on it for my poli sci class back in the '90s. |
| Legion 4 | 21 Dec 2016 3:37 p.m. PST |
The "old Life Experience" shtik again?
If Life has dealt you poor cards, it doesn't mean every game is a losing hand. I never said I was dealt a losing hand. You read into that because YOU disagree with everything I say or think. That is on you. And so now I'm a monkey ? Your not so carefully couched and behind the curtain insults and attacks, etc., on me again are really getting old. AND most importantly … your comments directly or indirectly have nothing to do with the Topic … Almost ever. The US has a sad history of choosing allies based on "pragmatic" considerations, And that seems to be the norm thru out the world in many cases. But you see it as a USA problem. GET back on topic !!!!! "Russian Ambassador to Turkey Assassinated" Not something that happened in 1474 ! |
| ochoin | 21 Dec 2016 6:38 p.m. PST |
@ Ralph: What?!? Your post is incoherent. I'm daring to quote historical precedent in a history site? Any criticism of the US is seen as unfairly attacking it? I'm talking about Russia & Putin on a thread about the Russian ambassador's assassination?
And you shout at me? I'm not one of your squaddies in the motor pool.
Nor is the cartoon chimp (not monkey) a dig at you. Anyone could see it's an allusion to trusting Putin. I'm sorry you didn't understand it. Wow! Can I quote something that seems to be relevant to your posts? But you need to stop harping on me and my posts. It seems to me as personal. My training and experiences is (sic) still valid today in many cases and especially when someone asks about the times I served (not in the US army but boy! did I serve). So to quote something recently (your) Commander in Chief said to Russia. "Cut it out !" |
 Editor in Chief Bill   | 21 Dec 2016 7:06 p.m. PST |
Guys, perhaps the Stifle tool is something you should consider using? |
| 15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 22 Dec 2016 9:15 a.m. PST |
Those of you who think western encroachment is merely Putin propaganda should read this recent interview with Nobel Peace Prize recipient Mikhail Gorbachev on "triumphalism": link |
| Rod I Robertson | 22 Dec 2016 3:23 p.m. PST |
The assassination of the Russian ambassador to Turkey says to me that Turkey is far more unstable than many think. If Turkey is unstable then it's behaviour will be increasingly chaotic and could quickly perturb from what most might expect it to be, much like a slowing top or dreidel wobbles before stopping. The recent coup attempt and the Erdogan government's reaction to it are two more signs that Turkey is dangerously unstable. The promotion of Kurdish nationalism and possible statehood by western states and interests will thus produce another perturbation which may turn out to be far more strong or of a type unexpected. Such a reaction from Turkey could throw the Middle East into yet another regional war. Another aspect of the spiral instability on a slowing, spinning top is that it sometimes wobbles wildly but then corrects and re-stabilises for a time. Turkey may do this in a manner of speaking. It may wobble out of the Western sphere and re-stabilise in the Russian sphere of influence. Another state going through similar shocks and instability is Greece. It too could wobble and realign from west to east if the economic shocks the west is imposing on it continue. While folks today might find the idea of both Turkey and Greece cooperatively following a more Russian and less western alignment unlikely given the issues and historical antipathy which both nations have felt before towards each other, I think this a real possibility. Just as Nazi Germany and the Stalinist Soviet Union reached a rapprochement at the expense of Poland and European peace, so Russia might be able to realign both Turkey and Greece the its camp because of the instability caused by western interests on these two Balkan states. This could then unravel the Balkan region as Russia could have direct access to the Slavic heart of Europe and once again effectively support and nurture pan-Slavism in south-central Europe. If I was Putin, that is what I would be working toward while distracting the West in the Baltics, Poland and Scandinavia. Rod Robertson. |
