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"A brief observation of casual Sexism and wargaming" Topic

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Tango0109 Dec 2016 3:56 p.m. PST

Read it…

Main page


cosmicbank09 Dec 2016 5:23 p.m. PST

That the problem with sexism, you can't be casual about it. You have to commit whole heartedly to be sexist.

cosmicbank09 Dec 2016 5:25 p.m. PST

and no I did not read it. I have found that being informed only makes me question my views.

Personal logo Editor in Chief Bill The Editor of TMP Fezian09 Dec 2016 6:16 p.m. PST

People worry too much.

Larry R Inactive Member09 Dec 2016 7:21 p.m. PST

Not worth the read

Mako11 Inactive Member09 Dec 2016 7:31 p.m. PST

Didn't read it either.

Wasn't there a major debate about this, with lots of anguish and drama, about a year or so ago?

Stryderg09 Dec 2016 7:34 p.m. PST

I read some of the article and have determined that the internet is becoming less useful as it gets filled up with perfifil such as this. (Or is it perfuful, wouldn't want to offend the fifils.)

robert piepenbrink Supporting Member of TMP09 Dec 2016 8:42 p.m. PST

I read it. Don't bother. If the top of some blogger's wargaming concern list is that someone in a book the blogger hasn't read seems insufficiently committed to "inclusive" language, said blogger needs to paint or roll dice.

We have governments and universities to go nuts about this sort of thing, so we don't need to.

zoneofcontrol09 Dec 2016 9:12 p.m. PST

As a healthy, virile and robust wargaming male, I say that a woman's place is in the kitchen…

zoneofcontrol09 Dec 2016 9:13 p.m. PST

… if that is where she chooses to GM a game on any given evening.

Mitochondria Inactive Member09 Dec 2016 10:00 p.m. PST

Bleeped texting SJWs. Deleted by Moderator

Mako11 Inactive Member09 Dec 2016 11:32 p.m. PST

I knuckled under, and took a peek, since I got curious.

The great civil war over gender pronouns is upon us.

basileus6610 Dec 2016 12:11 a.m. PST

A storm in a cup of tea. There are bigger issues. My daughter, she is 20 years old. She has more gaming experience than many, many boys in her gaming group. She has been around wargamers and gaming since she was born. Her first game was when she was 9 years old. Anyway, everytime she meets someone first time in a tabletop, she is treated like she is a poser or somewhat retarded. I must reckon that it is funny to watch how she, more often than not, wipes the floor with their asses in a few turns; and even when she loses the game, her opponent must fight for it… which gets them by surprise. She doesn't look the part -blonde, young and sweet- but she is vicious when she is gaming. Language is the last of her concerns; patronizing and paternalist jerks, on the other hand, are not.

To be fair, she also says that wargamers are, usually, polite and try hard to stick to the game and not at hitting at her.

grahambeyrout10 Dec 2016 4:31 a.m. PST

Sexism actually extends far beyond the gender of the players, and I feel a need to rectify it. Accordingly I am converting very other man in the ranks of my SYW Keinrat-Allabert-Hassenhausen army to a woman. The ruler of the said state, Prince Rupert, will henceforth become a Princess on alternate days.

GildasFacit Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Dec 2016 4:34 a.m. PST

Actually his argument is that it is largely a storm in a teacup BUT that those who don't like to see female references in their rules should just put up with it. Accept it as a sign of the times (or possibly a sign of more thoughtful authors) just as female gamers have to accept that no 'she' references isn't truly sexist, just lazy authors.

The quote he gives from the book, however, IS sexist and so, quite clearly, is its author. The book sounds useless anyway.

Cosmic Reset Inactive Member10 Dec 2016 5:34 a.m. PST

Aside from the sexist argument, I'm still trying to figure out why you need to lace a rule set with he, him, she, her, etc. I've written rules for most of the periods that I play, and even some sections of rules that have been published. Some were simple and short, and some longer and more complex, but I can't remember ever having to include any of those words in the rules in reference to a player. I may have rarely referenced or addressed the player by using the words "player", "players", or "you", but can't remember having need to call them he, she, or it.

Personal logo etotheipi Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Dec 2016 5:45 a.m. PST

gamers have to accept that no 'she' references isn't truly sexist, just lazy authors.

Nah. It is an artifact of the English language. There are many other languages where the collective and neuter pronoun for a human being is the same as the male.

Actually, this is discrimination against males. Females get their own, exclusive pronoun. That is to say, this issue is not a function of language, grammar, or usage, but rather a function of what you want to get *bleeped*ed off about before you start your argument.

Zargon Inactive Member10 Dec 2016 6:53 a.m. PST

Us Solo gamers don't have problems like that, but if I remember if memory serves me that the great H G Wells in preface of Little Wars did have inclusivness of genders but after that did what great authors do and used the masculine as is proper thus including our mothers, sisters and daughters as part of the hobby and giving the sexs equality. Nuff 'He' said.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2016 7:12 a.m. PST

I have found that being informed only makes me question my views.

Another article several of you won't bother to read:

Ottoathome10 Dec 2016 7:26 a.m. PST

Read the original article.
Another male bleating around the bush trying to speak for women.

Methinks if you really want to know what women think, you should ask them…

…If you dare.

Personal logo ochoin Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2016 7:45 a.m. PST

Read the original article.

Ah but there's a difference between 'reading' & 'understanding'.

Nary a bleat as far as I can see.

And as for having to *ask* women what they think, can't you see that encapsulates the problem?

cosmicbank10 Dec 2016 7:50 a.m. PST

Ran A game 20 years ago of Johnny Reb at a local con a gamers 10 year old girl was put in command of one of the flanks in the QUIET SECTOR. 3 hours later she is rolling up the flanks of a life long gamer.

durecell10 Dec 2016 8:23 a.m. PST

Read the original article.
Another male bleating around the bush trying to speak for women.

Methinks if you really want to know what women think, you should ask them…

…If you dare.

Luckily the author provided the links to the women he is supporting in his article.

Personal logo Extra Crispy Sponsoring Member of TMP10 Dec 2016 9:18 a.m. PST

Well, I have been introduced to a new form of manners: asking "how may I pronoun you?" You may be he or she or they, but it is your choice, not mine.

When I was a kid that was called respect. You were Mrs. Smith or Mary, but it was your choice. I'd say it still is.

Personal logo Weasel Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2016 9:21 a.m. PST

I always use gender neutral pronouns when referring to players.

"The player" rather than "He".

Seems more professional that way.

haywire Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2016 11:03 a.m. PST

Luckily the author provided the links to the women he is supporting in his article.

Including a transwoman who was originally named Dave. Yeah, if I was Delaney and saw that comment about transpeople, I would be pretty pissed too.

Brian Smaller10 Dec 2016 12:31 p.m. PST

Every time I read something about gender pronouns and stuff like that I fervently hope that complete societal collapse happens sooner rather than later. That will sort all that stuff out for another millennia or two.

Zephyr110 Dec 2016 3:17 p.m. PST

Jcfrog Supporting Member of TMP10 Dec 2016 4:15 p.m. PST

Lol totally sexist are women, most of whom staunchly refuse playing wargames.

Mako11 Inactive Member10 Dec 2016 4:33 p.m. PST

There's also ze, or zee (not sure how it's spelled, but it's supposedly pronounced like the latter).

Reportedly, a gender-neutral pronoun.

My late uncle Zee (for Zealand) would have been so happy to have that name used so much more frequently, I suspect.

rmaker10 Dec 2016 5:21 p.m. PST

I always use gender neutral pronouns when referring to players.

"The player" rather than "He".

"The player" is a noun, not a pronoun. English has two perfectly good singular neutral pronouns "it" and "one", the latter intended for reference to humans.

Mitochondria Inactive Member10 Dec 2016 9:56 p.m. PST

I'll just be over here enjoying my white patriarchal privilege as I oppress the other races and genders.

Chris Vermont Inactive Member11 Dec 2016 7:13 a.m. PST

As a female gamer, I must say that I love having men explain to me why I should or shouldn't be offended by things. Can you boys please do more of this? It is really quite fetching and I am sure all the women in your lives love this sort of thing. Practicing your mad skillz here, you'll definitely be gearing up to make a hit with the ladies, later.

By the way, I find this sort of hard-edged, manly insensivity particularly attractive when it comes from the mouths of men who, for instance, are terrified by the idea of having to share a public rest room with a member of the opposite sex, or who think it a huge insult that some institution would choose not to fly the Confederate flag.

Indeed, social justice warriors are so thin-skinned.

Also, a big "thank you" to the learned gentleman, above, who has taken time out of his weekend to inform us that "he" is a generic pronoun in the English language. Thank you very much for this information, sir. As God is my witness, I did not know this! Maybe it was because my uterus was giving me "lady problems" the day we did that unit in English class. Or, like, you know, whatever.

But your explanation has raised another question in my daffy little brain: why is it that "he" is the generic pronoun? I mean, did they, like, put the pronouns in a hat and draw one out at random when the time came to invent the formal rules of English? Or were there social and historical contexts operating at the time that might have influenced the formation of this rule?

rjones6911 Dec 2016 7:46 a.m. PST

This is a matter of facts and logic. A wargamer can be male or female, and thus the language used in wargaming should reflect that fact.

In my rules I use "player", "players", or "you" 99% of the time and thus the language automatically includes everyone.

When a pronoun is necessary, I use "one". And there's nothing "incongruous" (to quote "Tabletop Wargames A Designers' and Writers' Handbook" by Rick Priestly and John Lambshead) about using "one" instead of "he/his". In fact I find it incongruous, and factually incorrect, to use "he/his" to refer to people some of whom I know are women (e.g., wargamers).

On other hand, when a rule refers to groups that consisted entirely of men (which means virtually all historical military units), I will use masculine pronouns (e.g., "make him a Senior Officer, and detach him from his parent unit"). Once again this is a matter of facts and logic: while the wargaming community consists of men and women, German officers in 1904 were only male.

Roy Jones, Social Justice Warrior

rjones6911 Dec 2016 8:32 a.m. PST

Chris Vermont,

I know, Social Justice Warriors can be so thin-skinned. First they insist that pronouns used in wargaming (and other fields) include everyone, instead of excluding 50% of humanity. The next thing you know they'll be demanding we integrate women into the military – even into combat roles! Maybe even into the infantry! And with those "lady problems" they have, you know that's never going to work. As everyone knows, when going into combat a woman can either carry her uterus or her M4 carbine – she can't carry both. On account of those "lady problems".

And this social decay all starts with gender-inclusive language. When will this social-justice-warrior nightmare end!

Roy Jones
Thin-skinned Social Justice Warrior

Stepman311 Dec 2016 8:51 a.m. PST

I will always use HE, SHE, HIM, HER…Gender pronouns, LGBTQYZ…we go out of our way to make things more difficult. Everyone wants to feel special. This is wargaming, push your toy soldiers around the board and roll dice. It's not a political commentary, or at least it doesn't have to be, or shouldn't be…

Chris Vermont Inactive Member11 Dec 2016 9:00 a.m. PST

Since when is being acknowledged to exist being "made to feel special", Stepman? Where I grew up, that was just simple politness.

And while I agree that one doesn't need to use gender neutral language, there is absolutely no reason in the world at all to use the generic "he" in one's rules examples.

Want to talk about a "need to feel special"? How about people who see this simple, courteous, common sensical thing as some sort of an attack on their person or way of life?

Mako11 Inactive Member11 Dec 2016 11:29 a.m. PST

"In my rules I use "player", "players", or "you" 99% of the time and thus the language automatically includes everyone".

Wow, just WOW!

That is very exclusionary, and just plain wrong.

We all know that 80% 95% of people buying wargame rules are just "readers", and that they rarely if ever play them.

I find it offensive that you are dissing the vast majority of people in this hobby by excluding them (heavy sarcasm and general silliness intended).

Goober11 Dec 2016 12:31 p.m. PST

As with most things, Wheaton's Rule applies – to both sides of the discussion.


Volleyfire11 Dec 2016 12:44 p.m. PST

I did read this, or rather I tried to but lost the will to live after about 20 seconds and 5 paragraphs. It reminded me of the sort of hand wringing pap you get in The Guardian newspaper (that's a left leaning newsrag for wannabe socialist 'intellectuals' here in the UK.) If it was intended as being tongue in cheek I think it missed it's target.Completely. If it was intended to be serious, then I think it's time the authors took a break or something as they seem to be a little overwrought and possibly suffering from some kind of malaise that impedes the thought process?

ChargeSir11 Dec 2016 1:42 p.m. PST

Well I seem to be in a minority on this one, as I read it as a comment about inconsistency of usage in a paragraph a giving advice on gender and pronouns. It seems fair game to comment on this as the book is about best practice and advice to writers of rules.

My personal viewpoint is we have moved from using the masculine form as the default setting , which is what the extract appeared to be saying to use ( if a neutral position was not workable).

I have no preference between the use of he or she in these cases,however do find the him/her construct to be cumbersome and ugly in a sentence.

Dynaman878911 Dec 2016 3:35 p.m. PST

I thought that article, web page, whatever, was the most inane thing I had read in a long while, then I read the responses here…

Personal logo Lost Wolf Supporting Member of TMP11 Dec 2016 8:41 p.m. PST

reeks of political correctness

CeruLucifus11 Dec 2016 10:01 p.m. PST

Tried to read it but could only think … here's someone who needs an editor.

Mitochondria Inactive Member11 Dec 2016 10:01 p.m. PST


To be fair the article WAS an attack.

It was attacking the writing from the book and the writers opinion's.

So now we are just…responding.

Personal logo Narratio Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2016 1:00 a.m. PST

What about Hitler, was he sexist?

(Sorry but I had to do it…Godwins rule made me do it… It was a moral imperative. I'll go now.)

Personal logo Weasel Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2016 11:16 a.m. PST

I suppose its only fair that as the left hands over government to the right in the US, we also get to hand over the "easily offended by things someone said online" mantle to you guys :)

You seem to have studied well so I imagine you'll do us proud in the next decade or so.

ChargeSir12 Dec 2016 3:09 p.m. PST

Weasel thanks for making me laugh, does seem the world is fighting over who is the biggest snowflake trophy …who did we get offended by before the Internet?

Suppose it was our neighbours for not cutting the lawn just so ?

Personal logo Weasel Supporting Member of TMP12 Dec 2016 3:18 p.m. PST

I think before the internet, we just argued with the neighbours indeed and mowing the lawn on Sundays. :-)

Dynaman878912 Dec 2016 5:07 p.m. PST

> Suppose it was our neighbours for not cutting the lawn just so ?

My Neighbor's kid did tell my son "Your dad doesn't care about his lawn". I mowed it every week and kept the weeds out while my neighbor was out there every day doing some darn thing or another. MN has the MOST passive aggressive jerks in the country.

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