"Peloponnesian War fleets" Topic

Gents,

The Xyston 1/600 ancient naval ships are lovely models.

I am looking to put together some Peloponnesian War fleets. These will be Athenian and Spartan – Peloponnesian/Syracusan.

My question is that the Xyston range has a few trireme type, namely Greek, Phoenician, Roman and Carthaginian.

Greek

Phoenician

Roman

Carthaginian

Ideally I'd like to use different ships if I could historically justify them.

Looking at these vessels the Romans would seem to be out, but to what extent would the fleets of Athens and Sparts (Peloponnesus e.g. Corinthian) use vessels more in the style of the Phoenician or even perhaps Carthaginian. The later support by the Persians in building up Spartan naval power suggests that maybe they could be Phoenician like.

Any info on the likely appearance of these ships would be very helpful.

Kind regards

Happy W

Don't get too hung up on Xyston's labels. We don't know enough about the appearance of the actual ships to be picky or exacting. The sculptor literally just made up all those stylistic flourishes and variations. Feel free to scratch-build some more. ;-)

If those bow or stern sections are swappable, consider swapping them around between models to add variety. A standing fleet in the classical era was likely to contain captured ships, purchased ships, borrowed ships, allied ships, and just variations in styles between shipwrights, trierarchs, or influential military commanders (especially monarchs or tyrants). That said, I would expect a fleet of galleys built over a short period for a major war effort to have a similar style just because it's more efficient in mass production, e.g. the Roman fleets of the first Punic War, the Spartan fleet of the Pelopponesian War, every time the Athenians had to rebuild after a military disaster, etc.

I think the best bet is to paint up several groups conforming to easily identifiable themes, and use each for whatever nation they seem most appropriate each game. I recommend using colors this way too, e.g. Romans and Spartans could have a preference for red, Phoenicians and Carthaginians can have a tendency toward blues and aquas, etc. Use your imagination.

- Ix

Agree with YA – no historical proof than any of those differences are correct. To be honest, not even the basic dimensions of these models are correct or in proportion. I'd agree that they look good on a table, and that may be a good enough reason to use them, but don't agonise over small details.

Maintenance on Athenian warships was paid for by individual wealthy guys, but I don't remember whether or not building the ship was part of the deal. If so, that would provide more room for individual rich guy to put in design variations to suit himself.

Grelber

Hej HW. I would not get hung up on exact accuracy of models at this scale. These models dont show the fundamental diferences but they can be descriminated easily on the tabletop. The different prow and stern ornaments are pretty much historical. You could use the 'Roman' stern, having filed the shelter off, with the 'Phoenician' prow, having filed the ram's head to a form similar to that you can see on Olympias. But otherwise be satisfied with the Greek ship. With suitable paint jobs you can untangle a melee without eyestrain ! V. important. Also you can carve a bit in them or add some greenstuff flourishes.In fact, the construction of ships was a very conservative process due to tradition, superstition and FOFU. Sides frequently misidentified ships or masqueraded as enemy. In the Pelopnnesian wars they were all using the same shipbulding tradition. Paint jobs !(without going over the top ;) ) Maybe this topic is worth a post at my blog RamsRavensand Wrecks..

I would expect functional variations per nation (hull construction, hull shape, outrigger style, oar lengths, etc.), reflecting differing local cultures of shipbuilding and shiphandling, and non-functional parts to vary by individual taste (the arches on the front and back, the paintwork, the awning (if any) over the back, etc.), influenced by cultural preferences. These are the same patterns we see throughout more recent, better documented periods of naval power build-ups.

Rams seems to have been cast by expert tradesmen, so probably all the rams made in a city-state looked pretty much the same.

The details of ship building did not survive the two millenia between then and now, so we can't really say how many mass-production techniques they used. Once huge fleets of dozens or hundreds of galleys appear, however, I'm guessing that someone had developed mass-production techniques to pre-fabricate the parts in batches and fasten them together on a production line. This method was probably developed first in the major ports of the primary naval powers (Athens, Carthage, etc.) and then got copied by other powers trying to keep up. This pattern is well documented in the Renaissance; the Venetian Arsenal achieved a similar level of efficiency in the 1500s, and their techniques were imitated by the Ottomans, Spanish, and probably other Italian city-states. It's the most practical explanation we have for how a single city-state could build hundreds of galleys in a single season, like Athens and Rome seem to have done in war emergencies.

- Ix

We know of two traditions of building Threes or Fives. Different constructional forms creating effectively the same ship type.(unless modern interpretions are wrong).But within those Phoenician and Greek areas all seem to have followed the same tradition. Traditional shipbuilding does not experiment because this can cause the customer's death and has repercussions for the shipwright.. Sailors knew if a ship looked novel – and therefore untried -.This is why the Romans could not build their own new ship types. They used Carthaginian prototypes. There was no such thing as 'mass production' in the ancient world but there were occurences of 'multiplied' production. The production of a lot of items involved the activation of a lot of craftsmen. There is plenty of evidence for ship-building techniques from the ancient world. Most are in use today or were used until recently somewhere. We know masts and oars were delivered as blanks from the timber's source and finished at the shipyard. But there is nothing to suggest a Venetian-style assembly system which also relied on canals. It is quite easy to calculate that ancient states could build a lot of something once the workforce was focussed. The Alexandrians built 22 Fours and Fives in 'a few days' to face Cæsar.(DBA14)after their shipyards had been destroyed. Rams seemed to have followed the same principle. The tried and tested, most effective form was in universal use. Albeit with varying decoration.

If you decide the Xystons don't have enough variety, Skytrex still produces the old 1/600 scale Triton ancient ships, and Warrior Miniatures produces 1/650 miniatures of triremes, quinqueremes, and deceres. It's impossible to tell how compatible any of these are without seeing them side by side, so it would pay to order samples from each before placing a big order from any one of them.

- Ix

Gents,

Lots of really good comments and points – TMP at its best -thanks.

I'm thinking that perhaps 'themed' forces might be appropriate and reasonably historic.

The Athenians principally the Greek Trireme, the Spartans more of a mix of the Greek and Phoenician ones, though there is room to use these in an Athenian navy to, given the contact of Athens with the Ionian coast.

For the Syracusans, a more Roman or Carthaginian Trireme look will suffice.

I think by some clever repositionsing of the masts as well, a different look can be achieved. Thus for essentially the same class of ship, lots of options and visual differences can be made.

This should give each fleet an ability to mix amongst nations and also provide distinctive visual types to make the fleets look interesting.

Cheers

HW

In case you need inspiration, olicana has a nice fleet of Xyston galleys that he's posted about. :-)

- Ix

Oh my, that's awesome….

Oh yes,

…well acquainted with Olicana's warships…read every blog post several times!

That is, in the end. the 'look' I'm after ;-)