"Colours for Dillon's and Minorcan Regt.'s? " Topic

Hey all,

Just a question for the more learned people out there, if they happen to know, but I have been thinking about depicting either Dillon's or Stuart's Minorca Regiments for 1801 Egyptian campaign, but was just thinking about the colours for these regiments.

My understanding was that they did not receive proper King's colours until later – I think Stuart's became the 97th Queen's Own Germans afterwards, and Dillon's was added to other units to form a new one, but I couldn't find anything relating to what colours they would have carried beforehand, in Egypt.

Any ideas or suggestions?

If you scroll down three plates on the link below, you'll find a partially helpful image for Stuart's Regiment.

I am not sure as to the authority for the bugle emblem but it's a start.

link

Thanks. I have a feeling that troop might be a reference to Pvt. Anton Lutz of the regiment who became famous for taking the French colours at Alexandria. Think the flag he is carrying is a French light demi-brigade captured colour:

tricky ones these foreign regiments! Had the same problem trying to find ones for de Roll's Regt (thought there was a very handy thread on here about them that I was able to get something from).

Have a look at these. The one you are looking for is at the bottom

link

Paul:)

Thanks Paul,

I think I might have put across my question badly – by colours I meant their flags!

Good illustrations though, Bryan Fosten ones right?

" Thanks. I have a feeling that troop might be a reference to Pvt. Anton Lutz of the regiment who became famous for taking the French colours at Alexandria. Think the flag he is carrying is a French light demi-brigade captured colour"

Duh. Of course. The 'Invincible standard' of 'Napoleon's Invincibles' so-called, who appear to have been none other than the 21e DB Legère, or a battalion thereof, destroyed earlier by the 58th and 42nd- and whose colour was surrendered to Major James Stirling of the 42nd, only to be subsequently lost in a counter=attack and taken a second time by Lutz, who was sent back with it to Headquarters. So the story goes. It later hung in the Royal Hospital.

Yup! Fosten's illustrations are a must when it comes to British army uniforms.

The illustations are from Military Modelling Magazine Feb:1987 pages 109-110 and part of the excellent 'Cut of the Cloth' series.

As for the colours 'Dillon', I would have thought that they would have kept their original colours seeing as they were emblazoned with the cross of St George, the harp and four crowns denoting the three royal crowns of the British isles and that of the French.

And to point out that Sgt Lutz of Stuart's Minorcans was the only person to wear the distinctive badge denoting the French 3rd Battalion, 21st D.B colour he captured, on the left breast of his tunic. All other ranks and officers had smaller, similar badges to be worn on the upper left sleeve.

Kaiser John

Thanks. I have a feeling that troop might be a reference to Pvt. Anton Lutz of the regiment who became famous for taking the French colours at Alexandria.

At the Battle of the Roman camp (13th March) to be precise.

Paul :)

Um… March 21st ?

link

These are the terms under which selected men of the Queen's German's were to wear the badge relating to Lutz recovery of the French colour:

Copy of a Regimental Order, in the Regiment of
Minorca, 0r Stuart, now called the Queen's German Regiment, 4th of April, 1801.

"Private Anthony Lutz, who took the standard from the enemy on the 21st of last month, is directed to wear the representation of a standard (according to the model prescribed by the Brigadier General) as a mark of his good be haviour, on his right arm* —and the Brigadier General notifies, that as soon as the regiment is in an established quarter, he will institute a valuable badge, in a certain proportion per company, to be wom by such men as shall have been proved, upon sufficient testimony, to have distinguished themselves by acts of valour, or by personal instances of meritorious service; and officers are, on this account, to make note of the conduct of individuals."

[*Removed subsequently to the left breast}

42flanker

"Um… March 21st ?"

Umm! yes it was the 21st March. I got my actions mixed up. They fought well at the battle of Roman Camp but took the colour of the 3rd Battalion 21st regiment leger as you so rightly pointed out, on the 21st. and the badge to be worn on the right upper sleeve.

Here is the colour in more detail.

PS Thanks for pulling me up on the inaccuracies 42flanker, I am very embarrassed to say the least!

Paul :)

No 'pulling' intended, Paul. Just a nudge along the timeline.

Stuart's regiment provided sterling service at Alexandria backing up the men of Moore's brigade. The question of the captured colour, though, became toxic very quickly since, although it is clear that the grenadiers of 21st DB Legère were effectively destroyed by the 42nd and 58th in the ruins on the section of ridge held by Moore, the captured colour that was eventually sent back to London was delivered to headquarters by Lutz of the Stuart's Menorca Regiment. He had either picked it up where Sgt Sinclair of the 42nd lay unconscious or captured it a second time from a French officer (a fact to which two of Lutz's comrades swore). The 42nd, as a corps, never claimed credit for the trophy, although Sgt Sinclair himself did suggest Lutz had simply picked up the flag where it fell, setting off a row which wasn't put to rest till 1817, with the personal intervention of HRH the Duke of York.

Cheers for that. I heard a rumour some years ago that the captured colour is in the Manchester Regimental Museum? I don't know if that is true but if it is, then it must be in a pretty terrible state as if the contemporary illustration is anything to go by, it was rather tattered and holed when it was captured and time, exposure and atmosphere would do even more damage

Apart from that and further to my cringingly bad information. I obviously have the information at hand but didn't use it as (like a fool) I couldn't be arsed to look it up. A mistake(s) I hope not to make too many of in the future, especially as I have a pretty good track record for giving good references on this and other sites. There's no better way to knock peoples confidence in the information they are given than by giving them absolute garbage.

Paul :)

The 'Invincible Standard' was initially displayed in Whitehall until 1811 when it was deposited in the Royal Hospital Chelsea. it was still there in 1894 when it was said to be have deterioriated greatly but still identifiable as the standard of a light infantry unit of the early Napoleonic period. What happened to the standard thereafter, I am not sure.

As of 2011, I read on the Manchester Regiment forum, it was in the Museum of the Manchester Regiment in Ashton Town Hall, Greater Manchester. I would want to check that. As you say, 112 years on, I doubt there is much to see. (The museum is currently closed for renovations).

I was also unaware that the Black Watch had come into possession of two alleged fragments of the controversial banner.

Given the fuss that brewed up the last time, I shall refrain from comment.

link