"Victrix Spartan - which period?" Topic

Gents,

The Victrix Spartans, lovely figures that they are, cover the 5th to 3rd Century as the box says. However, we know the Spartans transitioned from an armoured to the unarmored tunic (chiton) in the later 5th century as their military dress, spear, shield and lightweight chiton. Evidence points largely to this as an accepted norm for the 'look' of the Spartan warrior of this time.

So, the predominantly linothorax equipment of the Victrix Spartans seems at odds to the Spartan army dress when they were at their military zenith (450-370BC) period.

So, what period are the Victrix Spartan box really depicting? They certainly don't seem suitable for the Peloponnesian War.

Thoughts on this box and it's ' historical' application would be appreciated.

Also, what other uses, utilising head/shield swaps, would the box be good for? Magna Grecia hoplites? Any successor period troops?

You can get a good look at the minis here
link

All thoughts welcome and appreciated.

Regards

HW

To my mind, the Linothorax poses would still be suitable for 4th century troops, especially those in Alexander's army, or facing him.

However, if you want the unarmored Spartans, easy enough to take the Spartan heads from this box and use with other plastic unarmored minis.

Most of the sources I've read indicate that the Spartans wore the same armor as other Greeks during the Peloponnesian War & that the trend of not wearing armor began in earnest after their defeat by Iphicrates in the Corinthian War in 390.

I would think the Victrix hoplites would be usable for the latter part of the Persian War through the Peloponnesian War and into the Corinthian War. The question would be if they are suitable for the Boeotian War (or Theban War).

Thanks agents,

@Atomic

What sources indicate the later shift to unarmored? Reading the Ospreys relating to the Spartans they all indicate a move to unarmored by the 2nd Peloponnesian War…Pylos being a case in point recorded by Thuycidides.

I've tried to reconcile these minis to the Peloponnesian War period but no source I find suggests that. Most point against it.

What sources have you got??

Cheers

HW

Thucydides doesn't mention the Spartans as being unarmored at Pylos except for the advanced post who were put to the sword as they were getting out of bed and just beginning to arm themselves.

The Spartans were unable to close with the Athenian light troops. They expected to fight other hoplites, but the Athenian hoplites refused to engage. Thucydides states that the Spartans could not pursue them in their heavy armor. (Thucycides 4.33)

After the battle was over, the Athenians set up a trophy (Thucydides 4.38), a trophy is composed of the enemy's armor.

I'm in the other situation, I have no sources that explicitly states the Spartan hoplites were unarmored during the Peloponnesian War.

Hi Atomic,

Some expanded thoughts below to give you an idea of where I am coming from with this.

Without delving directly into Thucydides and relying to a degree on a number of authors who have looked at the topic, there seems to be some consensus amongst those who have written on the topic in the Osprey sources. Whilst Osprey often gets short shrift in some quarters, the respective authors on this subject are well regarded IMHO.

Campbell in Osprey's 'Spartan Warrior' goes into some detail but wraps his comments up by saying…

"During the period of the Peloponnesian War, there seems to have been a deliberate lightening of equipment. The claustrophobic ‘Corinthian' helmet was replaced by the pilos , which left the face, ears and neck exposed. Although this was a far simpler helmet, several examples are known to have been decorated with repoussé or appliqué work, and a bronze statuette (now in Sparta Museum) shows how a crest could be applied.

At the same time, the bronze cuirass and greaves, which had been worn during the time of the Persian Wars, were given up entirely. The Spartiates on Sphakteria, for example, relied only on the protection of their shields. Much the same state of affairs probably continued into the 4th century BC, as long as the dwindling population of Spartiates clung to their heroic traditions. "

He further references Xenophon…

"Xenophon says that Agesilaos ‘armed his men so that it seemed as if they were all bronze and all crimson' (Xen., Ages. 2.7), he is probably drawing attention to the bronze helmets and shields. Nor is there any mention of corslets amongst Xenophon's troops in mercenary service in Persia: ‘all had bronze helmets, crimson tunics, and greaves, and had uncovered shields' (Xen., Anab. 1.2.16).

In his Osprey The Spartan Army Sekunda says…

"At some point during the 5th century, possible c.450-425, the lakedaimonian army decided to discard their cuirasses. Behind this move seems to have been a search for battlefield mobility as well as the need for rapid marching on campaign. In due course other Greek armies followed the Lakedaimonian lead and abandoned their heavy body armour.

This situation continued into the 360s, when representational evidence indicates that the cuirass was adopted again. This change may be associated with new battlefield tactics introduced by the Theban general Epaminondas".

W. Shephard's Osprey book on Pylos and Sphacteria references Thucydides on the subject…

"Adapting to the realities of a war of greater mobility, it seems that hoplites generally went into battle more lightly and less elaborately equipped than their forefathers. Body armour, if not dispensed with completely, was perhaps only worn in particular circumstances, which might have included guard duty or wall-defence or one of the quite rare, classic phalanx clashes.

More specifically, the reference to armour in Thucydides' account of the Spartans' painful encounter with the Stratian slingers can be read as implying that in an operation of that nature they would not normally have worn armour. The iconic closed and semi-closed helmets of the heroic past were superseded by the open pilos, trading comprehensive protection for better vision and hearing, and greater comfort. However, the heavy shield and thrusting spear continued to be the defining defensive and offensive armament."

Even the old WRG Armies and enemies book on Greece by Richard Nelson describes the lightly equipped Spartan soldier, albeit in a rudimentary way.

However, it appears that the reference for the Spartan Hoplite as depicted in the Victrix range is in fact soldier 16 in the WRG armies and enemies of Macedonia.

Importantly it says..

"This is a reconstruction from several sources. Thucydides and Xenophon say Spartans wore the Pilos; so the appearance of the usual corselet, as shown here, on Athenian reliefs showing trophies of Spartan arms, confirms that this is the spolas".

Spolas being the linothorax armour that Athenians wore and by way of reconstruction in the Armies and Enemies book it has been used to describe what Spartans wore also based on Athenian trophies. This is how that interpretation seems to be arrived at in the WRG book. What armour for what trophies from when is not indicated.

The next figure (17) then describes an Unarmoured hoplite. This is what the other (Osprey) authors above describe as the typical Spartan panoply of the time i.e. crimson tunic, spear, shield and pilos helmet. It then goes on to say that only lightly armoured Spartan young hoplites would be dressed this way, the so called Ekdromoi that chased off skirmishers. It does not infer the main hoplite phalanx woudl be dressed in this fashion.

So it appears that the Victrix boxes have used these references to define their Spartan hoplites…the images and descriptions are almost a direct match.

Taken as a whole the visual depiction of all these ‘modern' books portrays Spartan hoplites in lighter shield, spear and crimson tunic fashion during the 2nd Peloponnesian War and beyond. It seems to be the common theme based on varying reference points from different authors. The single book that describes the Victrix style Spartan hoplites is the Armies and Enemies of Macedonia book from WRG…a much older (but still very useful) source…on this point however, it seems to be on shakier ground.

Thus the image in the armies and enemies of Macedonia seems to be the reference for the Victrix Spartan Hoplite sculpt…though IMHO it is a miss cue.

Granted the later released Victrix Unarmoured Hoplites are in suitable clothing to use for Spartans but they are posed unlike the other hoplites so can't be ‘ranked' in a similar fashion, but more importantly they don't have the characteristic pilos helmet and hair of the 'Spartan look'.

Point being, if I was sculpting figures I'd be going with the mainstream modern consensus…not perhaps a comment here or there or one older reference work…particularly as your target audience you sell to will also referenced those same works.

There are multiple visual images of Spartans in this lighter kit….to me, it just seems that perhaps this older (1982) interpretation is now somewhat dated, or at least there are a number of other works countering its position.

Personally I think Victrix could've done an ‘'all options' job if they had the unarmoured hoplites arrayed in the same poses as the other boxes with the addition of a supplementary sprue of Spartan heads, which would have worked just fine and done the job whichever way your interpretation is. If I had to choose one way to go, the modern ‘lighter kit' Spartan IMHO is a more convincing argument as far as these things go.

Anyway, all of the above is just so you can see there are a goodly number of references out there showing Spartan unlike the single Armies and Enemies reference that the Victrix Spartan would appear to be based on…interestingly, Wargames Foundry's (Steve Saleh) range provided both options and I think Victrix could've done the same with some clever sculpting and sprue option choices.

HW

Foundry's range also includes nude hoplites, which most scholars assert that hoplites did not fight naked. Plutarch mentions the Spartan Isidas being fined for going into battle naked and unarmored.

Diodorus cites the Spartan King Archidamus as wearing armor at the start of the Peloponnesian War.

Hansen, Matthews, Kagan, and others all cite a trend of lightening the panoply during the Peloponnesian War among all city states because of the changing nature of warfare & the ability of armorers to meet demand. But no one makes a blanket statement that Spartans fought without armor more so than any other Greek army or that the Spartans had eliminated armor.

I have to disagree that the Victrix armored Spartans are based on a single reference.

I agree with Atomic Floozy on his points.

"lightening the armour" doesn't mean dispensing with it. It has been my own contention that the linothorax was adopted precisely to fit the idea of lightening the soldier's kit, while at the same time conserving bronze (and other metals) for use in areas where they were needed more. In short, linothorax both lightened the soldier's burden physically, as well as his financial burden to the city-state.

I would tell you to use your own research to build and paint your minis. Myself, I'd paint them with linothorax, and pilos, but that is just me. I don't believe that, under normal conditions, Spartans went without body army. Could they have for specific situations? Certainly. Despite the rigidity within the social system of Sparta, they were soldiers, and smart, and would adopt to the situation they faced, if given the opportunity. But as a rule, if something works, you don't stop doing or using it unless outside forces compel you to do so.

Both of you make fair points.

It does mean Osprey need to do rethink their Spartan hoplite 'look' logic though doesn't it….they regularly portray warriors in the red chiton throughout their books…there is not even a suggestion of linothorax use except in their Spartan Warrior book where it says that the "perioikoi who increasingly filled out the ranks of the Lakedaimonian army wore equipment like this"….this being the linothorax…make of that what you will.

Regards Foundry nude Hoplites – you're quite right. I plan on using those as naval personnel, who often didn't have clothing so as to wade ashore, etc. is this 100% correct??? Maybe not, but it works as a point of difference in a skirmish game setting. Other ranges such as Black Tree Design and Scarab Miniatures also offer both the armoured/unarmoured Spartan hoplite option.

I also agree with TKindred that you make your Spartan army how how you like – which I guess gets to my point. If those Unarmoured hoplites were posed like the rest of the boxes and could have Spartan heads they'd be fine and both options would be covered.

In the end, each person can decide what their Spartans look like….it's just a that Victrix didn't provide the options in an easy 'one box' set.

Nice points made by you both ;-)

HW

Oh this is nothing compared to the sometimes heated debate over whether hoplites fought with the overhand thrust or with an underarm thrust & then there's the other controversy over what constituted the "othismos" when hoplites came into contact.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the "Osprey look," I just don't think it is completely accurate. Our biggest problem with the history of ancient Greece is that we have 3 main records – the archeological record, the written record and the artistic record – which are incomplete and sometimes are at odds with one another.

"Men of Bronze Hoplite Warfare in Ancient Greece" is a collection of papers from a conference on early Greek Warfare held at Yale University in 2008. In one of the papers, Gregory F. Viggiano & Hans Van Wees state that in the period from 700 – 500 B.C. that perhaps only 1 in 10 hoplites wore a bornze cuirass. We know that the later linothorax was cheaper and lighter, but we don't know what percentage of hoplites wore it.

Anyway, while all hoplite armies were trending toward wearing only helmet, tunic, & shield, there was still a lot of body armor worn during the Peloponnesian War.

As for your marines, they didn't fight nude, but they were among the first to ditch the cuirass.

Thukidides and Xenophon both make reference to Spartan use of spolas, a linen or leather jerkin.

Anabasis 4.1.8 – Kleonymus the Spartan takes an arrow to the side through his spolas

For armies with less documentary evidence such as the Carthaginians I've found that Victrix tends to go with what was written in the original Armies of the Macedonian and Punic Wars even if Duncan Head has since qualified some of his earlier conclusions (see Slingshot and the newer edition of 2015). I don't think Victrix goes through an exhaustive research process, their ancients sculpts are pitched at the wargaming mainstream, which isn't such a bad thing for the most part.

But if you are collecting Spartans, as I do, you just have to accept that there's plenty of room for interpretation with the controversies over their dress, shield blazons, and moustaches.

Also bear in mind that after the Peloponnesian War the Spartiates were a diminishing minority. They may have been afforded good arms and armour but what of the perioikoi, neodamodeis and so forth?

My approach is to use models in linothorax and the odd hand-me-down cuirass for the few Spartiates, and a mix of chitons and less for the perioikoi and neodamodeis.

The Foundry and Gorgon range mix well with Victrix's various Greek options and provide good choices.