"Garibaldi-In Our Time" Topic

I found this interesting, too short though at 45 minutes as the historians all knew their stuff.

link

I'm tempted to put together a few units.

Thanks for the heads-up

I listened to it with a cup of tea and some of his biscuits

for others, like me, it was simply a mercenary, without any moral scruples paid by free massons among others…his band of outlaws lead by few naifs officers called red shirts were known to have in quite a few occasion harrased and executed civilians in the Sout of Italy…the quasi totality of his supposed to me military leadership was only propaganda …he also offered his services during ACW and FPW in his compulsve search for notoriety ( a faded an uncharismatic version of youg Mr Churchill) having as the most recorded consenquence to embarass both Whashington and Paris Governments …as a military leader it was very poor if not almost coward like in Mentana 1867 when his most notorious achievment after having conducted an absurd campaign was to leave alone his men in front of the ennemy, at fist shots, and escaping with all his staff up to North..

that is a great series by the way. MANY good historical topics.

He was a bit more creative and useful during his time in Brazil in the 1830s and 40s. Fighting in Uruguay and Southern Brazil is where he developed and earned his reputation, that he used in later theaters.

During the Farropilhian Rebellion, the Rio Grandese army was landlocked as their outlet to the sea was blockaded by the Brazilian Imperial navy. Garibaldi took two barques, had huge wheels built and then transported them overland pulled by teams of 60-100 oxen each to a river that avoided the blockade. They sailed down that river to the ocean. Then Garibaldi lead the seaward attack on a port in Santa Catarina who were convinced that the boat sailing in was part of the Brazilian navy since the Farrapos couldn't get past the blockade. Here is an example of a dashing, innovative, leading from the front commander that he was reported to be later in life.

I can't comment on his exploits outside of Brazil and Uruguay as I don't know much about them. He did however steal the wife of a fellow officer and then fled the country back to Italy.

this good looking and eroic Brasilian wife followed the supposed to be "Heroes of the two words" in Europe…supported the "great man" all over his career..then, after the falling of the 1948/49 Roman adventure..with Garibaldi pursued and cornered in the north by Pontifical and Austrian troops ..died of pleurisy among the swamps were the Garibaldi band was escaping and had to be abandoned
That's the official version: instead his corpse was find later by police..under the sand and according to subsequent exams by medics the poor woman had been , without any doubts, strangled…probably because being ill and unable to walk she would have hampered the escaping small bands of red shirts…..
not the best option to follow his man everywere

link

Italwars, you protest far too much and

Well he was a key figure in the Italian Unification. The Che of his times (for bad or good). Whether Italian unification did anybody any good is another question (I am of the opinion that Naples,Sardinia, and Sicily where better off on their own).

ITALWARs might be letting his politics getting the better of him(like most of us do on TMP), but he is right about the opportunism. He was a Mazzinian, and he opportunistically betrayed Mazzini in the 1850s for the Savoyards. Then again the Savoy Dynasty were major opportunists as well (it worked well for them until 1944)

In his defense he was not too shabby in his commands in 1859 or 1866. Overrated as a commander no doubt, and in 1861 facing one of the most hated rulers in Italy (seriously read up the post-1815 Neapolitan Bourbons. They are pretty terrible though Vittorio Emanuele of Sardinia-Piedmont gives them a run for their money)).

"in 1861 facing one of the most hated rulers in Italy"
hated by the ones (Piedmont and "liberals" backed and brided by Bristih gold in order to grab the revenues of the most and only industialised region of Italy) to whose he dared to resist…certainly not py the peasants, common people….masses..
KTravlos consider please why..if those liberals /Piedmontese/Garibaldi's where the liberators..after the supposed "liberation" of the South..a far more brutal war or repression VS civilians (Brigantaggio) lasted for some other 10 years with far more casualties than the whole Risorgimento experience?..Obviously that will be again considered "Politics"..but why when i or some few others choose a more conservative/nationalist/not leftiest/unpolitically correct stance while talking about history..is inevitably labelled "politics" or worst..and when everything else that appear on the forum is, in the majority of cases, pure "politics"…nobody protest?
anyway..thanks Ktravlos for offering some more light and explain some on my statements

Dude, it is politics. But in this case it is just 19th century politics and thus permitted on TMP.

As for the popularity of the Neapolitan Bourbons? Come on man. Sicily rebelled in 1820 and 1848, in what was a pretty mass thing. Naples rebelled in 1821 and 1848. I do not question the fact that Sicilian and Neapolitan peasants preferred to not be ruled by Turin but to interpret that as popularity for the Neapolitan Bourbons is a bit too much.

Neither authoritarian monarchism, or liberalism were mass movements in pre-Unification Italy. Most of the peasants just cared about avoiding taxes and conscription, which is what most peasants in the world care about. But to consider this as proof of the popularity of the Bourbons is also wrong. They might not had liked Turin, but neither did they like Naples enough to rise in masses to defeat Garibaldi or the Northern invasion. Which is a great indicator for the popularity of the Bourbons (contrast this to the Spanish insurrection against Napoleon, or the mass support for Carlism).

And come on man, if the British governments were so committed to the Carbonari or the Sicilian rebels, they would had stopped Austria from crushing the 1821 rebellions, let the Bentinck constitution stand, and stopped the crushing of the 1848 rebellions. There is a thing called Castlereagh and Canning you know, with very clear pro-Austrian policy stances on these issues.

There is a thing called Castlereagh

Just so as PBS noted:

I met Murder on the way -
He had a mask like Castlereagh -
Very smooth he looked, yet grim;
Seven blood-hounds followed him:

I wish my Italian was as good as Italwar's English.

And he is talking about history, from a political viewpoint to be sure, but still history. Thanks, KTravlos!

Mi italiano non e bene. Studio per tre anni nella universita, ma io sono uno bufo grande. Non scrivere, non parlare, non lire per dieci anni. La lingua e morire :(

Viva Verdi ;)

Oh ! The Continental Wars society has tons of stuff on Garibaldi, and examples of games.

KTravlos,

your italian is better than my greek. :) However, I side with Italianwar for most of his comments. The Garibaldi figure was hostage of Political Rethoric of both post-unitarian Italy and Fascism. We are still waiting for a serious scientific work on his figure which, without any doubt, was that of a self-promoting adventurer. From a military point of view I think his only real achievement was at Volturno were he was able to use his central position against the Neapolitans. (To be fair: the converging columns attack of the Neapolitans was a pale shadow of Lacy and also Alvinczy manner to deal with the matter).

Fabrizio

torgauproject.blogspot.it

Fabrizio uno momento per favore. I do not regard Garibladi as a saint, any more than I regard the Risorgemento as a good thing. I would even say that his story in the English sources is more hard headed than you think.

I agree that he was a political opportunist, but he was a committed unionist. When it was clear that Mazinianism could not work, he went for the second best option which was Savoia. I mean he did not offer to serve for the Hapsburgs.He was faithful to the core of his ideology of national statism. Whether that is good or not is still an open question.

And as I pointed out he seemed to do ok in 1859 and 1866 as a commander. No worse than many of the regulars in both the Piedmontese/Italian and Austrian army.

I am also not wont to excuse his opponents. The Neapolitian Bourbons were a pretty authoritarian bunch. When even Metternich thinks you are going too far, that should tell you something (and I am advocate of Metternich). The Austrians could had made it work if they had stuck o their federalist past. But they chose not to largely because of panic and illusions. Does this justify the Risogermento? Probably not. At least not south of the Appennines. And definitely not in the national statist form. But the alternative options were few because those who could offer them refused to do so.

Well here is what one american student thinks ;) I mean if an american student catches the self-love drift, I am questioning how much celebratory the sources are?

YouTube link

very interesting topic ..thanks again Travlos for your interest..i suppose that being a Greek you have a deeper sensibility in understanding our less official history..thanks Fabrizio..there is lot to say about that matter..i'll come back tomorrow on that trhead..
for the monet there are two points/clues:
a) but those so famous "Garibaldi" buiscuits are they good?
b) in my opinion Risorgimento and subsequent Italian unification was above all or most of the merit should be recogniced not to Garibaldi, Mazzini, Piedmonte Savoia House..but to Virginia Countess of Castiglione

Hey ITALWARS, the unification movement predated Napoleon III, and even if he was not around it would still had continued. Whether federalist, republican, monarchist the drive was there, especially in the north. So Countess Castiglione played her part in it, but even if she was not around, the drive would had continued. At a fundamental level Savoia had either the choice of heading it or dying by it (something Bismarck understood as well).

The only way I can see it being abated is if the great norther cities, which were the hotbeds of unificationism, were detached from their terra firma. Essentially urban city states surrounded by largely rural territorial states. That probably would had made unification on any other basis then a loose confederation impossible. But again that requires political leaders in Savoia and Vienna, willing to to do that.

but those so famous "Garibaldi" buiscuits are they good?

Absolutely top notch – my favourite biscuit – they are also known as Squashed Fly Biscuits. See link

Interestingly there is also the Bourbon Biscuit which is quite good for dunking See link

But I'm not going to mention Peek Freans Trotsky Assortment

Too late!

Didn't SUNSHINE cookies make them, or a version thereof, up until the 80's or some such. I really used to like them as an alternative to FigNewtons.