"Column V Line" Topic

We have set our regiment size to 48 figures, 8 figures on a 20x20mm base for Black Powder.

My question is when you have a regiment in line there can be three columns in front of it, does this seem right?

Thanks Jules

Columns need room to deploy. Attack columns should be at least two columns wide.

I think what EC meant to say was

Attack columns should be at least two column widths apart

Cheers
David

Thanks guys, so that means we have a two – one ratio rather than the current three.

I might last longer

Thanks

Jules

Spot on. Columns would advance with enough space on either side to deploy into line. The original concept was not to 'go in' in column but to deploy and deliver fire. Thus space was required. The columns would not jam together even in the later years when column was relied upon even more due to lack of training and experience.

This is one if the reasons why Black Powder is not my preferred set of rules for Napoleonics, although we use the similar Pike and Shotte for ECW games and enjoy doing so.

The advantage of columns was their ease of movement compared to line. Jamming columns together should negate the movement advantage, create an enormous target and increase the chance of disorder (traffic jam). If the rules instead reward the phalanx of columns, then the rules are wrong. And they are in many Napoleonic rule sets.

From what I remember a British battalion in line is up to 6 times wider than a French battalion in attack column.

This is one if the reasons why Black Powder is not my preferred set of rules for Napoleonics

But nothing that a simple house rule can't fix – as indeed encouraged by the authors of BP.

My question is when you have a regiment in line there can be three columns in front of it, does this seem right?

I think we have covered the basis for this a few times on TMP. Shako suffered from the same problem. Anyway, the answer is historical and simple: a line should direct the same amount of fire to any unit in its path. So in BP terms, the line unit gets to fire at the same odds against all of the attacking columns.

Anyway, the answer is historical and simple: a line should direct the same amount of fire to any unit in its path. So in BP terms, the line unit gets to fire at the same odds against all of the attacking columns.

So if a single unit in line is attacked by three units in column, it gets to fire three times as much ammo than if it was attacked by only one unit?

Is this a gaming question or a reality question?

If the former, yes. If the latter, the attacking columns are providing the defending line with much better shots at close range. And the effect works much the same whether one is a "musket-counter" or "morale" person.

Long but interesting discussion here: TMP link

"OK boys, there's three of them d**m Frenchie battalions advancing on us. Now I know you've only been trained to fire 2 rounds a minute with your muskets, but there's three targets now so you've got to fire 6 rounds a minute!!"

"OK boys, there's three of them d**m Frenchie battalions advancing on us. Now I know usually most of you would be firing at 100 yards plus, but today there's a target at 30 yards for each of you"

So how disciplined do you have to be to hold your fire until the enemy are only 30yds away – and when a lot of your mates can't even fire at the enemy because the angles are too much?

"OK boys, there's three of them d**m Frenchie battalions advancing on us. Now I know usually most of you would be firing at 100 yards plus, but today there's a target at 30 yards for each of you"

And how many rounds can each man fire in the time it takes the enemy to advance that 30yds into contact?

So how disciplined do you have to be to hold your fire until the enemy are only 30yds away – and when a lot of your mates can't even fire at the enemy because the angles are too much?

That's the point, really. If you stick three battalions in adjacent columns attacking one battalion in line, you eliminate this problem for the defenders and they all get a straightforward shot at close range/

And how many rounds can each man fire in the time it takes the enemy to advance that 30yds into contact?

This is the "Sharpe's Eagle" version of history where "it takes six rounds to stop 'em". This has been thoroughly debunked (the Brits generally held their fire until the last moment possible), which they wouldn't have done if they had been going for maximum rate of fire.

I'd really suggest you read the thread I linked to.

That's the point, really. If you stick three battalions in adjacent columns attacking one battalion in line, you eliminate this problem for the defenders and they all get a straightforward shot at close range/

But allowing that unit in line to fire three times as fast as compared to when it is being attacked by only one unit makes no sense at all.

This is the "Sharpe's Eagle" version of history where "it takes six rounds to stop 'em". This has been thoroughly debunked (the Brits generally held their fire until the last moment possible), which they wouldn't have done if they had been going for maximum rate of fire.

You miss the point.

At an average pace of say 60yds a minute (and that is actually quite slow for a unit in column) the defenders are only going to have time to fire one round at most.

Hello Jules!

This is a common problem with many small element based rules.

It appears that your using generic battalion strengths of 6 bases of 8 figures (Baccus?) for a total of 48 figures. Your line is 120mm long, therefore to fit three columns into that space it seems your columns are 40mm wide. That's probably too big of a distortion for a battle column. Using a frontage of 60mm would probably be better. So as you have now been advised that rarely did columns go in side by side if you separate them by roughly 60mm (a house rule) for their deployment space you will only be faced with a single column vs your lines.

Now keep in mind that there were occasions when two columns might be closer together due to terrain, drifting or even orders. Also the French used a mixed order formation that was two columns joined by a line. So you could end up being attacked by one and a half French units. So at some point in time you might also have to consider house rules for both of these situations as well.

Another suggestion for you to consider is perhaps just simply rebasing your figures on to a Polemos (Baccus) standard basing system. These are 60mm x 30mm bases that can represent anything you want but for Black Powder it's generally a battalion. If you need to have different sizes you can simply add on an additional 30mm x 30mm base (or two). There are lots of options but generally most people simply use the single base and have a few house rules to fit in with Black Powder.

The first thing this base does is roughly double the size of your table as your units in line are now half the length. Your turn times will also generally be cut in half as you have only one sixth of the units to move. And formation changes can be greatly reduced or eliminated if you adopt a Polemos rule "all units are always in the best formation for the situation at hand". You will double the number of your units on the table, your present 48 figures for a battalion vs Polemos 24 figures. You will be able to play almost any Napoleonic rule set as is or with a few minor house rules. You can buy these bases on line already painted and mounted. Also since this is a very popular base size for 6mm you have a good chance of hooking up with other players.

Anyway just some thoughts or ideas for you to consider in case you didn't know this. Also hope that my first suggestions solve your problem or at least help you out in some way.

Best regards,

Glenn

But allowing that unit in line to fire three times as fast as compared to when it is being attacked by only one unit makes no sense at all.

Ah, I see. I tried to explain that in game terms only a unit which would have fired "once" at a single enemy unit will fire "three times" at three separate units. This is not meant to represent a unit firing three times faster.

You miss the point.

At an average pace of say 60yds a minute (and that is actually quite slow for a unit in column) the defenders are only going to have time to fire one round at most.

With respect, I think you are missing the point, that being if the attacker crams the frontage of the defending line with attacking troops, that eliminates all the difficult long-range arc of fire issues that face the defender when attacked on a single company/peloton frontage.

The whole issue is a hangover from an Oman-esque interpretation of infantry combat. Rules writers then calibrated combat rules so that their could be a fight between a single defending line and a single attacking column. Wargamers then draw the logical conclusion of shoving in more attacking columns which then divides the effectiveness of the defending fire by that number. You can see from Albuera – or from any instance where French infantry in column or British infantry in square drove off or stopped an attacker by fire that this description is inadequate to the facts.

Ah, I see. I tried to explain that in game terms only a unit which would have fired "once" at a single enemy unit will fire "three times" at three separate units. This is not meant to represent a unit firing three times faster.

But if you have the same probability of inflicting damage on each of three attackiing units as you would have on a single unit attacking then you are allowing the defenders to have three times the effectiveness for no apparent reason.

With respect, I think you are missing the point, that being if the attacker crams the frontage of the defending line with attacking troops, that eliminates all the difficult long-range arc of fire issues that face the defender when attacked on a single company/peloton frontage.

That wasn't the point I was addressing at all. You were talking about the difference between shooting at 100yds and shooting at 30yds.

But if you have the same probability of inflicting damage on each of three attackiing units as you would have on a single unit attacking then you are allowing the defenders to have three times the effectiveness for no apparent reason.

Because the traditional model essentially assumes that every defender is contributing equally by firepower to the defeat of the attacking column. This is obviously not the case.

You were talking about the difference between shooting at 100yds and shooting at 30yds.

Because of the range variation between the shooters closest to the column and those furthest away is roughly that large.

One thing you can do is break your British up into 2 3 base units of 24. One represents the left wing one the right wing and say the both count as normal sized units. That means you get 3 dice (4 on first fire) per wing. And you'll find his columns can't do the cheesy double column thing.

This is historical. Also beef up your brigades with a normal sized light battalion. So you get an extra unit that can skirmish and slow these guys down.

As others say also establish a house rule about distance between columns. If you have 2 columns with a 2 bases frontage advancing they need 2 bases free on either side OR they suffer movement penalties/ disorder/ can't form line or square.