"Cold War Italians - why so little?" Topic

Surely, in conjunction with a Warsaw Pact canter across the North German Plain, an attack through Italy's Po Valley into Southern France would knock out the Italians and force the French out of a Cold War hottie that much sooner (with or without battlefield nuclear attacks).

So why no miniatures?

(I understand they were using M60 tanks at the time!)

Most of the cold war fantasy is written from an American or British perspective, pretty much.

I think it's as simple as that.
All manner of interesting scenarios could be concocted around the Italians though, whether its reds in Rome or an excursion into Yugoslavia to acquire some beach-front property.

Hmmn, an amphibious Yugoslav attack around Rimini to outflank the Italian positions in the north-east and then across to seize Rome!

Miniatures please.

An attack through the Po Valley into Southern France….
Ummm…
Where exactly is it coming from? Yugoslavia? Seriously? The definition of a Non-Aligned Nation? A Warsaw Pact invasion of Italy would first have to invade and pacify Yugoslavia.

Cellar Door, you are assuming Yugoslavia was a Warsaw Pact member. It never was.

Er, it's all hypothe …hypocra… it's all made up! Like fantasy …like GoT!

It's a game …even.

In the next war we will have the Italians on our side. It is only fair we had them the last time. I don't think Italy was going to move deep into Warsaw pact area's so way invade them. Just drop a little of this and taht on the airbases.

I have read some hypothetical Italian scenarios. In them the Italian state is divided between Communist and Christian Democrats with a virtual civil war. Remember at the time the Red Brigade was very active.Plenty of Spetznats on the ground and the Hungarians attacking via Austria.

Invading France from the south leads to Force de Frappe – unilateral French nuclear use. Not a pretty option.

Any drive would have probably just bogged down in another mountain range. What is there to drive towards? Sicily?
No real advantage to taking the place. It would have been like conquering Romania except you got better cars. The only thing it might have achieved would have been to unite the population into being more disgruntled with an attacker than each other.

On the start up side, any charge out of Yugoslavia would probably have collapsed Yugoslavia in a heartbeat. We saw what they thought of each other in the nineties. Feelings would have been even worse ten years earlier with more having a living memories of the last rounds' massacres. No need for the goslars to sing about,"They call me Zdenko and burnt down my village", from the twelfth century as the bullet scars were still fresh.

I could see some strikes to take out potential southern airbases or even to control the sea lanes between the Med.

On the whole, Italy was best viewed as a massive reserve for when everything started to dry up and run out on the Central front.

Yea, pretty much a sideshow.

IIRC, they fielded Leopards too, so a decent mix of kit.

You will also notice a mountain range in the map that the OP so kindly provided.
The French handled the Italians quite well there in 1940.

I was in the US Army in the 80s and the Italian Army was never mentioned. Ever.

As noted above, the Alps at either end are something of an obstacle.

I don't think the Po Valley figured in any sort of War Pac operational planning either. You might a few 3rd wave war pac divisions parked up next to the Brenner Pass I suppose, but all the fun was GSFG.

Lots of naval action in the Med. though, back in the day, so you can probably make an argument for an island invasion or two, just for grins, as the communists try to secure the European lake for their own use.

Neat looking infantry, armed with BM-59s…

Chalfant

My interest comes from the GDW Games board game series Third World War, and the truly inspiring North German Plains campaign fought by Jeff Shulte @ 99 Red Balloons. Well worth a look.

link

link

Game Two in the Third World War series, Bulgaria and Romania, reinforced with three Soviet armies and special-capability forces, face Greece, Turkey, and Yugoslavia, thinly reinforced with a few elite units from the U.S., France, and Italy.

The campaign is very mobile, with neither side having enough troops to cover a solid front (although the mountainous terrain of the area helps somewhat). Special units such as airmobile, airborne, and amphibious troops, with their abilities to outflank a line, become even more important.

Another important feature is the tangled web of Balkan politics, Romania is the least reliable of the Pact countries, and its participation is half-hearted at best. A second scenario allows for its total neutrality, forcing the Soviets to reinforce their armies and invade before taking on NATO. Greece and Turkey are uneasy allies, and rules allow for Greek withdrawal from NATO. And Albania is completely unpredictable.

Additional rules allow Southern Front to be combined with The Third World War; players can reinforce one front with forces from the other, requiring a host of new decisions on the strategic level. One or two new divisions or air units sent to the Balkans can turn the tide there, but at what cost to the main front, where every unit is desperately needed ?

Any interest in miniatures to cater for this Southern Front?

And it's a splendid map, thank you

Italy in the '80s had a very respectable navy, so I suspect much of the action on their side would be surface warfare and ASW in the Med, while the WarPact concentrated on knocking out their shipping and ports. Probably a sideshow as either Albania invades Italy with an amphibious assault (ha!) possibly supported by some Soviets for backbone, or the Albanians sit there and Italy dismantles their military in support of Greece (which would have to face Bulgaria as well, possibly supported by Turkey as long as the Turks don't start shooting at Greeks "by accident…")

Damon.

Oh, if you want to do WW3 in the Balkans or Greece, we've done all that in 6mm. I thought you wanted to invade northern Italy, which seems a bit far fetched.

Hacketts 'WW3' of course started in Yugoslavia:)

So yes, there are tons of figures. In 6mm (or 2mm, my scale of choice for WW3).

The Po Valley isn't pointed at anything. It's too far south for Paris and too far north for Rome. Any armies sent into it are simply diverted from somewhere else more important.

That's one hell of a mountain range in the way, and France's definition of "Frappe!" was "enemy units 30 minutes from the border" at a minimum, and probably closer to "90 minutes from the border."

The most I can see is airbase and port attacks to support Soviet ops in the Med. More of an Air and Sea fight than ground battles, though I'm not discounting Spetsnaz raising hell.

I guess it depends on Yugoslavia. Either the Soviets ignore, invade, coerce into an alliance or negotiate transit. There would likely have been serious unrest in Italy if not a civil war.

I remember crossing the Italian-Yugoslav border in the 80s there was a who;e bunch of Pattons (not sure if M60 or M48) parked up on the Italian side.

The pc game "The Operational Art of War" has a bunch of WW3 scenarios and invading through Yugoslavia is a pain. Fun to play though.

Try this: PDF link

@11th ACR, helpful list, thanks. Although, there is one notable omission from the list of model availability

Difficult or impassable terrain looks certain, although that didn't stop plans being drawn up for troop movement into and through both Austria and Switzerland!

Hesitation in invading Yugoslavia, to reach Italy and beyond, sounds as redundant in hesitating to invade Northern West Germany to reach Denmark – for which there were plans drawn up.

PDF link

Very nice "Cellar"

The Po Valley isn't pointed at anything. It's too far south for Paris and too far north for Rome. Any armies sent into it are simply diverted from somewhere else more important

Huh! What a miserable WORLD War this is turning out to be!

What was said, "Suppose they had a war and nobody came?"

You're welcome, 11th ACR. There is more if you'd like it?

Seem to recall difficult and impassable terrain being a major problem for the Germans in the Ardennes… it's only difficult and impassable if it's defended.

"Cellar Door, There is more if you'd like it?"

Send it, Over!

11th ACR, enjoy.

Concept of Operation for the Polish Front

PDF link

US Intelligence Assessments and the Reliability of Non-Soviet Warsaw Pact Armed Forces 1946-89

PDF link

Military Reliability of the Soviet Union's Warsaw Pact Allies

PDF link

New Soviet Army Corps Structure and Its Operational Implications

PDF link

Warsaw Pact: Planning for Operations Against Denmark

PDF link

With thanks to ex-TMPer (Jake Collins of NZ 2)

Seem to recall difficult and impassable terrain being a major problem for the Germans in the Ardennes… it's only difficult and impassable if it's defended.

The Ardennes doesn't have 2500m tall mountains in the way of an armored advance.