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"11th Panzer at the Chir river, Dec 42 - what equipments?" Topic


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Comments or corrections?

taskforce5825 Nov 2016 11:17 a.m. PST

I'm thinking of starting a new project focusing on 11th Panzer's fight at the Chir river in December 42. What kind of tanks and other equipment are common for both sides?

Mark 1 Supporting Member of TMP25 Nov 2016 1:32 p.m. PST

As to the "other" side, I believe that the following units were involved:

1st Tank Corps (89th, 117th and 159th Tank Brigades)
Very Few KV-1s (5)
Many T-34s (70+)
Many T-70s (60+)

5th Mechanized Corps:
Very Few T-34s, T-70s
Many Valentines (100+)
Many Matildas (70+)

8th Guards and 216th Tank Brigades
Many KV-1s (30+)
Many T-70s and T-60s (50+)

Found on an old post on the Feldgrau website:
link

Claimed sources from:
Gryler, A.N. et al "Boevoi Sostav Sovetskoi Armii II" ("Combat Composition of the Soviet Army") page 239
Rokossovsky, K. K. "Velikaia Pobeda na Bolge – Al'bom skhem" ("Great Victory on the Volga – Atlas") Map No.22 (5th Tank Army's Situation of the beginning of December)
Zhilin V. A. "Stalingradskaia Bitva II" ("Battle of Stalingrad Vol. 2") page 121

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Starfury Rider25 Nov 2016 2:40 p.m. PST

They look to have been one of the Pz Divs that got some reinforcement for the second year in the East.

Pz Regt with three Bns, so Pz IIIs and IVs plus Pz IIs in the recce role.

Pz Gren Bde with two Regts, each two Bns; only one Bn in 251s, the other three Bns in wheeled transport, with a towed 15-cm gun Coy and a 2-cm Flak Coy for each Regt.

Recce Bn with two Coys on motorcycles and one in light 250 halftracks, plus an Armd Car Coy. Pio Bn with one Pl of one Coy in halftracks.

Atk Bn looks to have been two towed Coys of 5-cm guns, plus a 2-cm Flak Coy. Arty Regt with two towed 10.5-cm Bns and one towed 15-cm Bty (the third Bty with 10-cm cannon rather than howitzers). Also a Flak Bn with two Btys of 8.8-cms and one 2-cm Bty.

All the usual 1942 kit for a Pz Div really.

Gary

taskforce5825 Nov 2016 3:27 p.m. PST

Pz III would be all ausf J with the long 50mm gun? Any L?

T-34/76 would be model 1942 with the hexagonal turret and mickey mouse hatches?

Starfury Rider26 Nov 2016 3:47 a.m. PST

I can't comment on the specifics, but there's a table showing reports of AFVs authorised versus on hand for June 1942 (I think taken from Jentz). For 11th Pz Div it gives;

Pz II – Auth 74, on hand 15
Pz III – Auth 106, on hand 14 (5-cm L42) and 110 (5-cm L60)
Pz IV – Auth 30, on hand 1 (7.5-cm L24) and 12 (7.5-cm L43/48)

What they had on hand six months later I don't know.

Gary

donlowry26 Nov 2016 9:44 a.m. PST

T-34/76 would be model 1942 with the hexagonal turret and mickey mouse hatches?

Don't think those came out until '43. The '42 model looked just like the '41 model but with slightly thicker armor is some places.

Martin Rapier26 Nov 2016 11:13 a.m. PST

There is a lengthy account of the Chir river battles on the Axis History forum by 48th PanzerKorps chief of staff:

link

at various stages the strength of 11th Panzer is listed as 104 tanks, 75 and just 55 for the attack on Sovkhoz 79.

Mark 1 Supporting Member of TMP26 Nov 2016 12:52 p.m. PST

T-34/76 would be model 1942 with the hexagonal turret and mickey mouse hatches?

Don't think those came out until '43. The '42 model looked just like the '41 model but with slightly thicker armor is some places.

The labeling of T-34 models is a tricky business, because the Soviets put very little information into the actual model naming. There were no actual sub-variant names tracked in official sources. They were just T-34s. Occasionally they are given a long-hand name based on the year they entered production, so a T-34 1940 production, vs. a T-34 1941 production, vs. a T-34 1942 production. That label typically does not identify when an individual tank was built, but when that version of the tank entered production.

From this we can, if we chose, identify T-34s as 3 types:
- T-34 1940 production had a shorter L-11 76.2mm gun, easily identified by the gun protruding from the lower half of the cast mantlet.
- T-34 1941 production upgraded to the longer F-34 76.2mm gun, easily identified by the gun protruding from the top half of the riveted / welded angular mantlet.
- T-34 1942 production, easily identified by the hexagonal turret.

The hexagonal turret with two round hatches, which the Germans identified as T-34D and nicknamed the "Mickey Mouse" version, began production in June of 1942. Russian sources sometimes call it a T-34m1943, and sometimes call it a T-34m1942/43, and sometimes call it a T-34m1942, although official sources typically call it a T-34, or in long-hand a T-34 1942 production.

The version that the Germans identified as the T-34F was essentially the same model with a turret made in the forge at the Uralmash factory in Sverdlovsk (a different production process that produced a turret with a different appearance). It was otherwise no different than the version the Germans identified as the T-34D, although the Sverdlovsk turrets did not come into production until somewhat later.

The version that the Germans identified as the T-34E was the same as the D, but with a cupola for the commander. Some sources indicate this was built as a platoon or company commander's version, others indicate that it was just an incremental improvement in some (not all) of the factories that was often given to the unit commanders but not built for that purpose.

There was no T-34m1942 with the cast turret and large top hatch, as imagined by German intelligence as the T-34C and so frequently described as such in western publications. The T-34m1941 was built with a variety of incremental features from different factories, and so they may or may not have had an armored plate over the hull MG, or hook vs. pintle tow points on the hull, or round vs. square engine maintenance hatches (all described as visual identifiers of the T-34C vs. T-34B). Some (primarily Leningrad production) were built with additional armor plating and are often described as -E (for ekrani). Official Russian sources typically do not identify any T-34 with the large single roof hatch as a T-34m1942. They are all just T-34 1941 production from different factories built at different times.

As to which one would be right for December 1942, a mix of 1941 and 1942 models (aka: m1942/43, aka: m1943, aka: Mickey Mouse) would be appropriate. The 1941 version remained in production for several months after the 1942 version was introduced, and remained in service for even longer (some seen in photos in Germany and Czechoslovakia in 1945). As with the very good information on the Pz IIIs and Pz IVs above, front line units would have kept their older models in service even as they received newer models, and would frequently have received depot and factory rebuilt older models as part of their new allocations as they re-equipped.

German sources generally tracked 5cm short vs. 5cm long gun versions of the Pz III, or 7.5cm short vs. long versions of the Pz IV, but typically not identifying Pz IIIL vs. IIIM, or Pz IVF vs. IVG. Soviet sources made even fewer distinctions. A T-34 was a T-34. If it was a T-34-85, that might be identified separately, but sub-variants of the T-34 were not. No one tracked T-34m1941s vs. T-34m1942s. It just isn't in the unit records. (And there was no such label as T-34/76. If it had a 76.2mm gun it was just a T-34.)

And BTW, the (few) KVs might be the KV-1 or KV-1S. Can't say from the available records. The majority of KV-1S's were built in the second half of 1942. But there were more KV-1s produced, even in 1942, than the -1S's. In this case it was more likely for a unit to have all -1S's than in the case of the T-34m1942s. Because the -1S had a different mobility profile there was a deliberate effort to built units with all -1S's. There still would have been some mixed units, but all -1S units would also have been a possibility.

Or so I've read. Wasn't there, can't say from personal experience. Might read something different next week, in which case I'll change my story without hesitation.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

deephorse26 Nov 2016 12:53 p.m. PST

The best I can find for 11 Pz. is from Battistelli's Osprey on Panzer Divisions 1941-43.

If I have interpreted his table correctly the strength in tanks of 11 Pz. on 18 November 1942 was;

11 Pz.II
9 37mm and 49 short 50mm Pz.III
6 Pz.IV with long 75mm

The entire 1st Abt. of the Pz.Regt. had been detached to Army Group Centre at that time.

Los45628 Nov 2016 9:37 a.m. PST

If you want to know about the 11th Panzer at Chir, you should start with the words of their commander, Gen Herman Balck.

link

An enjoyable book…

Los

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