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"ECW Headgear?" Topic


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603 hits since 22 Nov 2016
©1994-2017 Bill Armintrout
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Personal logo Flashman14 Supporting Member of TMP22 Nov 2016 7:21 a.m. PST

Looking over the new 18mm Blue Moon link releases and being a total novice to the period am wondering who wore which of these hats?

The "hats" are mostly Royalist? What about the Montrero and the Monmouth? Are they all interchangeable and just for variety or did one side wear one type prevelantly?

Would there be whole units in Monmouth caps? Command and all? Same for the Montero?

Mac163822 Nov 2016 8:58 a.m. PST

The Oxford garrison regiments (king's and Queen's life guard,Sir Wm Pennyman's) in 1643 where re-clothed in suits (britches and coat the same colour) and a monteros.

Like with most armies this uniformity would soon have disappeared.

The montero can pulls down in cold weather and looking a bit like a balaclava.

Monmouth caps started off as cap comforter worn under morrion.

I have always mixed the hats in my units (Royalist or Roundheads) with the majority of Monteros in the Royalist Regts.

mollinary22 Nov 2016 9:03 a.m. PST

Don't worry, I think a lot of people would be in the same boat. The basic answer is that headwear styles did not distinguish between sides, the old hat with plume versus the pot helmet as cavalier and Roundhead has long been exploded. So troops with hat, and Monmouth are absolutely interchangeable as Royalists and Parliamentarians. The Montero is a bit more problematic, I have seen it represented far more often as common in the Royalist Oxford army, but rarely for parliamentarians. That said, it appears to have been a popular headgear for officers of both sides. I am sure the real experts will be along shortly to put you (And me!) right.

Mollinary

Big Martin Back22 Nov 2016 11:38 a.m. PST

It was a civil war. So both sides dressed as C17th Englishmen/Welsh/Scottish.

Timbo W22 Nov 2016 12:59 p.m. PST

Agree with the above, all pretty much interchangeable, only thing to remember is no helmets for musketeers!

martin goddard Sponsoring Member of TMP22 Nov 2016 2:29 p.m. PST

I have those minifigs strips with lobster pot pike and shot. The strips were great and allowed some good ECW to be fought, along with those nice Peter Laing (1974??)

martin

Timbo W22 Nov 2016 4:30 p.m. PST

Comment overheard in the 'Minifigs era'

"Well I know my foot regiment probably shouldn't have lobster pots, but they've beaten your cavalry so often now that it's only fair they've picked up their helmets"

:-)

Timmo uk23 Nov 2016 10:22 a.m. PST

I still have Minifigs ECW armies with lots of conversions, plumes removed, apostles added etc. I mainly, but not exclusively, use Royalist codes for foot in hats or generally morion style helmets and Roundhead codes in pot helmets for horse. I mix up the hat styles within units. Whilst there are records of issues of clothing these tended to be for coats. However, there are records of monmouth caps being ordered and supplied en mass. Ditto the montero.

As noted there was a clothing issue to part of the Oxford army of, I think, 2000 or 3000 matching suits of blue or red including montero caps. However, until this thread I've never known which regiments received this issue.

@Mac 1638
Do you have the reference to the first hand source material that states these suits were definitely issued to the Life guards and Pennymans? I thought the Queen's Lifeguard was 'up north' at the time of the issue (1643 I think) and didn't reach Oxford until 1644? And surely the Oxford City regiment was part of the permanent garrison more than
the King's Lifeguard could be considered to be which formed a part of the Oxford marching army.

My knowledge on this relates to the Peachy Prince ECW flags book in which they list about five or six possible recipients of the matching suits but without a definitive conclusion as to the right answer.

Mac163824 Nov 2016 6:01 a.m. PST

Timmo uk

The reports start in March 1643 of suits of red and blue and are still being commented on in October, I do not know when in 1643 the Queen's life guard turns up, as the Kings LG and Pennyman's are part of the garrison you think they would be clothed first but we are all just speculating.

Most of the quote are referenced from Young, Wood and Toynbee,
I know Peter Young owned a lot of original papers and the Perry's bought some or all.

As with most of this it's just guess work, it keeps historians and book writers in work.

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