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"Soviet Steel – The SU-76" Topic


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Tango0119 Nov 2016 12:55 p.m. PST

Interesting…

picture

picture

picture

More here
link

Amicalement
Armand

peterx Supporting Member of TMP19 Nov 2016 8:11 p.m. PST

Oh, I like the rust.

donlowry20 Nov 2016 10:37 a.m. PST

I'm not sure whether the SU-76 inspired the Germans to produce the Marder series (and Wespe) or vice versa. Anyone know?

Andy ONeill20 Nov 2016 12:10 p.m. PST

The marder pre dated the su-76, but there again the zis-30 was 1941.

I think both Germans and Soviets had the same realisation about light tanks and a big gun on tracks with some armour is better than a towed ATG with zero armour.

Both Germans and Soviets started the war with light tanks and they came to the conclusion they were a bad idea.
Switching production of tanks in a factory is a BIG deal. As is inventing a new tank.
But they both wanted the bigger ATG they had to be more manoeuvrable.
So what to do?
They didn't have the luxury of 3 years lead time for a new tank out a new factory.
The obvious compromise was to re-use something they already had and wasn't so great.
They both wanted a bigger gun than would fit in the turret of their light tanks.
Lose the turret, stick a cheap thin bit of armour on and bolt the big gun on. Done.

Mark 1 Supporting Member of TMP20 Nov 2016 1:58 p.m. PST

While the Marders look very similar to the SU-76 from a wargamer's perspective, they did not arise from the same needs, nor were they used in the same way.

The Marder was a response to the question "How do we get an effective AT gun on a tank chassis into the hands of the troops ASAP?" Existing, non-critical chassis were chosen, and the most powerful practical AT guns were put on top of them with minimal re-work. It was used in Tank Hunter (the German equivalent of the US tank destroyer) formations.

The SU-76 was a response to the question "Since we don't want to make any more light tanks, what else can we do in this little car factory?" It was a way to build at least some minimally useful infantry support vehicle in a factory that was not otherwise useful for anything more than command cars and light trucks (which were coming in large quantities through lend-lease). It was intended for the NPP (infantry support) role, organized into "light" self-propelled gun (the Russian equivalent of the German StuG) formations.

Marder was a significant AT platform in 1942. It was effective because it carried a better AT gun than the tanks in the German army, a gun that was notably effective. SU-76 was a widely used and not particularly well regarded direct-fire infantry support platform in 1944 (the crews nicknamed it "Sutka" -- the B!tch). It carried a gun that had no advantage in AT performance compared with the tanks of the Russian army. But it was cheap and did not take away capacity from anything else that needed to be built, so why not?

Similar results from differing approaches -- the Germans figuring out how to build what they needed, the Russians figuring out how to use what they could build.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

Tango0120 Nov 2016 3:10 p.m. PST

Glad you like it my friend!. (smile)


Amicalement
Armand

gamershs21 Nov 2016 12:56 a.m. PST

Most people forget that there is a tradition of horse artillery in both the Russian and German armies. The range of rifles and machine guns forced the artillery into indirect fire from a distance. With self propelled armored artillery the traditional role of horse artillery (direct fire guns) came back into favor.

The SU-76 could be used in the anti tank role or the direct fire artillery role. The later SU-122 and SU-152 with better armor and bigger guns were primarily direct fire artillery that could be used as anti tank if needed.

Griefbringer21 Nov 2016 8:12 a.m. PST

The marder pre dated the su-76, but there again the zis-30 was 1941.

However, Germans were cranking out self-propelled guns on Panzer I chassis in limited numbers already in 1940. These mounted either 47 mm anti-tank gun (Panzerjaeger I) or 150 mm infantry gun (SIG I).

Considering that the original Panzer I was only armed with MGs in the turret, these designs represented a noticeable increase in firepower.

HidaSeku21 Nov 2016 12:04 p.m. PST

I've always liked the SU-76. That's a great model, Tango!

Mark 1 Supporting Member of TMP21 Nov 2016 12:12 p.m. PST

The later SU-122 and SU-152 with better armor and bigger guns were primarily direct fire artillery that could be used as anti tank if needed.

Ah, but the SU-122 and the SU-152 did not come later. They were contemporaries with the SU-76. However both fell out of production fairly quickly, while SU-76 production continued through the end of the war.

The original call for SU vehicles included one mounting a 76.2mm gun, and one mounting a 122mm howitzer. These became the original SU-76 and SU-122.

However the original SU-76 was deemed a failure, and production ended quickly as a re-design was sought. The vehicle we popularly call the SU-76 now is in fact the SU-76M, a significant modification with re-arranged automotive layout (engines and drive train) and an open top (the original was fully enclosed). Thus the vehicle we commonly call the SU-76 did not enter production until many months after the SU-122, at about the same time as the SU-152.

All Soviet artillery was expected to frequently fire over open sights. Anti-tank work was also considered a common task for Soviet artillery, and was integrated into typical defense plans, whereas most militaries of the time considered it a last-ditch task for the occasional "oh sh!t" moment. In this, the SU-76, SU-122 and SU-152 were no different.

However, the Soviets did have formations who's primary role was anti-tank work. The SU-85 and later SU-100 were developed for this role. The requirement for the SU-152 is also often suggested to be due to the need for a heavy anti-tank platform, though over time it certainly became a preferred platform for reducing prepared defenses.

While tanks (and SUs) were classified as light, medium, and heavy for logistics purposes, their combat roles were conceived as recon, infantry support, independent operations and/or breakthrough. Contrary to the British model, and more in-line with the French model, in the Red Army an infantry tank was a light tank. What the Brits called an infantry tank was to the French and Russians a breakthrough tank. It all worked through in the end, though, as the Matildas and Valentines which the Brits called infantry tanks (thinking they were heavy tanks) were considered light tanks by the time they got to the eastern front.

The SU-76, as a "light" SU, was considered an infantry support platform. In this it was expected to supplant, and eventually replace, the T-26, T-60 and T-70 (on which it was based) light tanks. The "medium" SU-122 was originally envisioned as direct-fire artillery to support the independent operations role (the tank and mech corps). Over time it was determined that the primary fire-support need of these formations was defense against counter-attacking tanks, and so the SU-122 was abandoned in favor of the SU-85 (and later SU-100). The "heavy" SUs, the SU-152, later ISU-152 (and ISU-122) were envisioned to support the breakthrough role, working with or in place of heavy breakthrough tank formations.

Of course, in action it could all get mixed up. But as I understand it that was the thinking that went in to the design requirements.

The SU-76 was never well regarded by anyone except high command. Contrary to many wargaming rules (which seem to want to give it SOME redeaming benefit) it's gun, while different in detail, fired the same ammo for the same performance as a T-34. It offered no advantage in firepower in the AT or infantry support role, and was at a grave disadvantage in terms of armor and mobility. But it could be built in the GAZ automobile factory (which had produced the majority of T-60s and T-70s), a factory which was not able to product heavier AFVs. And having a mobile, bullet-proof 76.2mm gun to support infantry attacks by shooting up MG nests and dug-in enemy infantry was better than not having one, and so it stayed in production through the end of the war, and was built in larger numbers than any German AFV.

So while it ain't much of a weapons system, if you put more of 'em on the table than any of your opponent's German tanks or AFVs, and send them one way to support an infantry attack, while on another path you send your T-34s and medium SUs, which also outnumber all of the the German AFVs together by a factor of 3 or 4 to 1, behind a breakthrough wave of ISs and heavy SUs which outnumber the German heavies by 3 or 4 to 1, you may find that your SU-76s are remarkably successful.

At least the Russians did.

-Mark
(aka: Mk 1)

gamershs22 Nov 2016 12:50 a.m. PST

Almost every tank that was in production when the war started had an SU created on the same chassis. If I read the deployment correctly they would follow between 200 to 500 meters behind the advancing tanks and be used as direct fire artillery in support of the tanks. If it was a bunker or fieldwork great. If it was a tank then that was also OK.

SU-76 used the T-70 chassis with about 14,000 built. I suspect so many were built as the SU-76 with a 76mm gun was more dangerous then the T-70 with a 45mm gun in a support role.

SU-122 used the T-34 chassis with about 1,100 built. It was built from December 1942 thru Summer of 1944.

SU-152 used the KV chassis with about 700 built. It stoped production when the KV production ended (repaced by ISU-152)

ISU-122 used the IS-1 and IS-2 chassis and about 2,300 built.

ISU-152 used the IS-1 and IS-2 chassis and about 1,900 were produced before wars end with 3,200 produced by 1947

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