"Middle Earth "Goblin Men"" Topic

Two Towers has two references to "goblin men", one by Gamling during the battle of Helms Deep and a more definitive reference by Merry and Pippin when the fellowship meet up with them again.

From that text, we know that:

These "goblin men" can reasonably pass for human.

They are as tall as men.

They marched (and presumably fought) as part of the human parts of the Isengard forces.

So.. .goblin men in your miniature armies? How do you stack them up compared to uruk-hai, dunlendings or regular ole orcs?
What figures do you use?

I've always reckoned it's a synonym for halforcs but happy tobe proved wrong.

There was a discussion here a few months ago,if you can find it. Some opt for two different types,or "species". Based on a reference in the book by a character to "these half-orcs or goblin-men", I tend to think it was a case of trying to place a new sort of creature into existing catagories,somewhat awkwardly, as you'd expect,and both terms refer to the Uruk-hai.

I used to hold that it was just two different words for the Uruk-Hai but rereading it, I am starting to wonder.

The passage later goes like this:

And there were battalions of Men, too.
Many of them carried torches, and in the flare I could see their faces.
Most of them were ordinary men, rather tall and dark-haired and grim, but not particularly evil-looking.
But there were some others that were horrible: Man-high but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed.

To which Aragorn responds that they dealt with these at Helms Deep.

It stands out to me, because they are specially said to be part of the battalions of Men and carrying torches (which orcs would presumably have little need for).

Of course, it gets more confusing because during the actual battle description, Tolkien only refers to the armies as "orcs", except for one character making the "half orc and goblin men' reference.

Taking the two comments together, I think it could definitely indicate something else alongside the pure Men and Uruk-Hai (half-orcs).

And there was that "squint-eyed Southerner" at Bree. He looked "more than half an orc" somebody says (Sam?). Of course,that's from someone who'd never seen a real orc.

Depending on how you envision the Uruks to come into existence, some products could turn out more man-like, I suppose. If,as Treebeard seems to think,Saruman was deliberately cross-breeding orcs with humans,dominant genes would come into play.

Tolkien grew uncomfortable with his original conception of orcs being Elves somehow "twisted" by Morgoth,as he speculated more and more on the nature of Elves in later years. He eventually decided that orcs were made from men. It's discussed in one or two of the later History of Middle Earth volumes, "Morgoth's Ring" and "The Peoples of Middle Earth", I believe, I'm not near my library right now.

But then, you have to decide which to accept as "canonical".

Yeah, he changed his minds on quite a few things over the years.

I tend to be a "LOTR+Silmarillon" guy when it comes to canon but there's no real bad answers I suppose :-)

THe origin of orcs changing to men makes some questions come up though: Melkor/Morgoth had orc armies before there were humans in the world, at least in the Silmarillon.

Really? I'd forgotten that. I am up at my mother's old house,so all I have are a set of old early 70's LOTR paperbacks that have seen better days. Of course there are lots of Tolkien forums,but I find it frustrating wading through all the silliness that seems to proliferate.

So unlike TMP. Harumph.

Just remembered something, and looked it up. From RK,"The Scouring of the Shire":

"When they reached The Green Dragon. . .they were disturbed to see half a dozen large ill-favoured Men lounging against the inn-wall; they were squint-eyed and sallow-faced.
'Like that friend of Bill Ferny's at Bree,' said Sam.
'Like many that I saw at Isengard,' said Merry."

Make of that what you will.

As much as I like Tolkien, I think these may come from his darker side. I think these are just men from somewhere else, with characteristics different from humans with which the westerners are familiar. To the westerners, they resemble orcs.

There is speculation that there is cross-breeding, but human differences, from a point of view, could account for the level of difference here.

andy

Interesting that you bring this up, the One Ring RPG recently released a supplement for Rohan and they assumed these are in fact two different variations on whatever breeding scheme Saruman was pursuing. Here's the illustrations:
link
link

My gut feeling is that the Goblin-men would basically fight about as well as the Dunlendings. The interbreeding isn't to make them better fighters, it is to make them more pliable to Saruman/Sauron's control….

-Will

Appreciate the suggestions!

Definitely room for interpretation in multiple directions.

I suppose as gamers, the idea of having a distinct type of critter to build armies of is very appealing. :)

I personally agree with Andy Skinner on this, and think these are foreign men, like Easterlings or something even further out, that were recruited by Saruman. The description sort of reminds me of some of the descriptions of the Huns, so I think that fits…

Damon.

Garand--I was thinking about Huns also--especially the description by Jordanes,which (IIRC) reads in part something to the effect of ". . .as to their--I cannot call them faces,but the thing on the front of their head. . .".

As for Tolkien's "darker" side, I remain skeptical about any alleged racism. Witness his outrage upon being asked to provide proof of "Aryan" ancestry by the German publisher of a proposed Hobbit translation,or his statement that,in the real war,"not all the orcs were on one side".

Perhaps UK members could enlighten us,but I've often wondered if the "squint-eyed southerners" thing wasn't some sort of geographical/cultural in-joke among West Midlanders.

I do find it difficult to imagine any groups from beyond the Anduin finding their way to the Isengard region--they were under the sway of a far more powerful personality much closer by.

Could they be tribes from the west side of the mountains?

We know of the Dunlendings of course, which are noted by name.
Presumably there could have been more tribes in the same region, possibly migrants from far away or tainted by Morgoth in distant times.

Heck, the Numenorians gained long life as a reward by the Valar in ancient times, it's not inconceivable that they could be the descendants of men who sided with Morgoth, thus earning a blood curse in the process.

If you want to humanize them a bit, its easy to assume that they fell under the sway of Saruman due to their likely ill treatment by both Rohan and the people of the North.

I disagree with the idea JRRT is talking about foreigners when he describes the Goblin Men. I also don't have the books to hand to quote references, but it was clear Saruman has mixing Orcs and Humans. The more 'man' like creatures he was sending out as spies and agents into the North to find the Ring.
The squint-eyed description I take as meaning you could tell these Half-Orcs by their eyes.
There were enough 'foreigners' in the LOTR that if JRRT meant the Goblin Men to be non-Westerners he'd have described them as Easterlings or Southrons.

I've also read Morgoths Ring, and the notes are clear that Saruman came across the lore of breeding men and orcs, and produced 'Men-Orcs large and cunning and orc-men treacherous and vile'.

I disagree JRRT had a 'dark side'. He was a man of his time and class, and shouldn't really be judged by our very modern standards. In all honesty, I don't think I'd have liked him and I don't think he'd have liked me. LOL

My thoughts are that the Uruk-Hai and the Half Orcs and Goblin Men are different breeds. The Uruku-Hai are a more refined breed of Orc, like Ugluk and his gang, trained and armed with broad straight bladed swords and powerful bows. The Half Orcs and Goblin Men were to me, just that. They fought brigaded with the Men of Saruman's army. They needed torches at night. They seem to have been indistinguishable from the Dunlendings and Hill Men at Helm's Deep, save perhaps a little stronger, perhaps with a more savage energy.

Now my question here is why? If Saruman knew that the Goblin Men weren't going to be particularly better than Men in a fight, and lack the two prinicpal Orcly "virtues" of numbers and night vision, then why breed them at all? Perhaps they were a part of his Uruk breeding program, or perhaps he wanted infiltrators that wouldn't join the communities they infiltrated, or perhaps they acted as a sort of "internal security unit" in the Dunlending and Hill Man communities, remember they were pretty quick to swear off any future fighting in Rohan after the Battle of Helm's Deep.

Small side note, Sam refer's to Ferney's companion as a "Squint eyed Southerner" as do Merry and Pippin. These Hobbits had yet to meet any Man from further south than Old Arnor, let alone an Easterling or Harad Man. Sam, on seeing the Southrons enter the Black Gate recognised them instantly as men, and felt great sympathy for the Haradrim slain in front of him by the Rangers.

If we assume the goblin men are indeed distinct, it might also stand to reason that being part men they were not as prone to the in-fighting and quarreling that "pure" orcs are subject to.

A wargamer might rank them as orc troops that are not subject to animosity (in games that reflect this) or give them a leadership bonus over the regular grunts.

"A more refined breed of orc"?

"I say,Grishnakh,old chap,would you mind passing that tray of man-flesh? Thanks,awfully,dear fellow."

Sorry. Couldn't help myself.

What's Black Speech for "Handkerchief" ?

Dunno. Nappie? Serviette? Probably "Sleeve".

Anyway, here are some relevant quotes about Ol' Squint-Eye:

link

There seems to be some agreement on various Tolkien-related sites that there was a difference among "half-orcs","orc-men,and maybe even "goblin-men". Not sure how much of that is driven by the need for more CCG cards.

If the "Men" with orc "blood" in them are to be identified with the Ruffians in the Shire (and what else could they be?),then,from their behavior,I would hesitate to give them any leadership bonuses.

In fact,they might be regarded as inferior "half-breeds" by both Dunlanders and Uruk-hai. I admit I'm getting out on a limb here.

There's always a need for more cards, units and miniatures, slightly differentiated so we feel compelled to buy more of the blighters :-)

Yes, CLEARLY there is a huge difference between a half-orc, quarter-orc, three-quarters orc and one-and-a-half-orcs! Don't you see, we need models for all of them!

-Will

Thank goodness Games Workshop fixed it all by making them very different to all other races and blessed them with various shades of green. Can't get bogged down in that. But I do remember my firs orc armies being various shades of browns and olive due to my youthful reading of Tolkien. Yes Tolkien was a man of his times arnt we all?

The one-and-a-half-orcs must be the big ones since they managed squeeze all that orc into one guy :-)

Excellent discussion! I have always been troubled by how to represent them in my HotT armies and this has really helped

Terry

150% orc? That's some Goooood Orkin'!

Yet more orc-stuff:

link

The one-and-a-half-orcs must be the big ones since they managed squeeze all that orc into one guy :-)

150% orc? That's some Goooood Orkin'!

Exactly! You're getting 50% more Orc for your trouble! Those elves won't stand a chance!

-Will

The impression I gained from what I read was that the men of Bree (and, presumably, quite a lot of the human inhabitants of Arnor) was that they were akin to the Dunlendings (and the former inhabitants of the White Mountains), but unlike the Dunlendings, had changed their language and culture to become closer culturally to the socially dominant descendants of Numenor. I get the feeling that most of the Southerners at Bree would not have looked remarkable to local eyes.

It seems to me that the Uruk-Hai, if Treebeard was correct in his suspicions, had at least some human blood. "Half-Orcs" and "Goblin-Men" may be synonyms for each other,, but seem to refer to creatures with enough human blood to be accepted as humans (although the part Orc ancestry may well be noticeable).

The Dunlendings were useful allies for Saruman, and always potential trouble for Rohan. However, they were allies, not servants. Half-Orcs may well have been a useful by-product of the Uruk-Hai breeding project.