"Soviet Guides" Topic

Here's a brain teaser: I am trying to figure out the Soviet squad organization for the Winter War (1939). I am reasonably satisfied with the 15-man number that is touted in many places (NCO, 12 riflemen and 2 crew for the LMG). However, is there any reason to believe that the Soviet infantry squad in 1939 assigned one of the riflemen as a scout/guide (the so-called "provodnik") for the group? They certainly did this by 1941, but it's not clear to me whether this position was in existence during the Winter War as well.

Any thoughts?

The Red Army Handbook gives a man-for-man list of the Dec1935 Rifle Squad as;

NCO leader
Observer/scout
LMG team (2-men, one LMG)
Grenadier team (2-men, seemingly one rifle grenade launcher)
Riflemen (6)

It gives a slighter description for the Sep1939 model, but does state the Squad had 11 rifles and one LMG, which suggests a 12-man Squad total.

The earliest shtat (T/O) I've seen for the Red Army Rifle Regt is Apr1941, by which point they had moved to an 11-man Squad. That only refers to the Squad as an NCO, 2 LMG numbers and eight riflemen. Across the four Rifle Squads of a Platoon two riflemen were to be armed with scoped sniper rifles.

Gary

Ah interesting, thank you for that. So you would trust the 12-man number over the 15-man squad?

Also, where can I purchase that Red Army Handbook?

I have also heard that there could be a lot of reorganization of the Soviet sections at the local level depending on mission, men available, etc.

link

See if you can hunt down a copy via a second hand dealer…it is worth getting hold of!

Also, where can I purchase that Red Army Handbook?

It has been reprinted under the name "Companion to the Red Army 1939-45" though I am not sure where you can find it in stock.

And it certainly lists the 15-man squad reorganisation just in time for Winter War (but after the Polish campaign), though I am left wondering to what extent that reorganisation was actually implemented, considering that it did not last for very long before being reverted again.

Also, considering the level of training and tactical finesse of many of the Soviet units taking place in Winter War, I am not sure how concerned I would be about the existence of the "Provodnik" in the TOE. War-time memoirs of Soviet soldiers who participated in that conflict might be a useful resource, but unfortunately they are not exactly in good supply (official Soviet history had a habit of trying to ignore the whole event in the first place).

I'm also interested in this, especially what changes were implemented from 1938-1941.

I have the Red Army Handbook, but couldn't find the 15 man squad as an organizational option, just the 12 man squads of the Dec 1935 and September 1939 TOE. So really the question is whether the September 1939 TOE had 15 man squads? Does anyone have a solid source? I know Wargames rules often go with the 15 man org.

Thanks!
Ed

Not sure where it is mentioned in the Red Army Handbook (I'll have to pick up a copy), but Osprey's Finnish Soldier vs Soviet Soldier (in their Combat line of books) also mentions that four 15-man squads make up the platoon (although it doesn't go into any further detail than that, going by the Google Books preview).

Right, even I'm getting confused now…

The immediate pre-war Red Army Rifle Div is listed as ref 04/20-28, with the Rifle Regt on shtat 04/21, which isn't one I've got a copy of. That was dated 13th Sep 1939 and an outline organisation is given at www .rkka.ru -

link

Now that does show a 15-man Rifle Squad, not 12, as described in the Red Army Handbook/Companion. Comparing the diagram in the above link to the table in the handbook they mostly match, but do differ in the issue of LMGs; 108 in the diagram versus 142 in the handbook – 108 would match for 27 Rifle Pls with 4 Sqds, each one LMG, but leaves none for other subunits, not that big a deal for RKKA units.

However, the same site shows a diagram merging the Dec35, Sep39 and Apr41 Rifle Div orgs, which shows the Rifle Squads as 15, 12 and 11 under these three dates respectively. I've not seen a diagram for the Dec35 Rifle Div. I can't find a ref for 15-man Squads in the Red Army Hdbk either?

Gary

Page 103 of Charles C. Sharp's Soviet Order of Battle World War II: Volume VIII "Red Legions" The Rifle Divisions Formed Before June 1941 also appears to have the 12-man squads listed for the 13 September 1939 Rifle Division's Rifle Regiments (Shtat 04/21):
"4 Rifle Squads, each: (2 NCOs, 10 EM, 1 LMG, 1 sniper rifle, 9 rifles, 1 rifle grenade launcher)"

I don't have the Sharp books, but the same details are given in his 'Soviet Army Infantry Tactics' from Nafziger.

I've gone back over the rkka.ru site and realised I've made a mistake interpreting the diagram merging the evolution of the three early war types of Rifle Div. It doesn't cover the Dec35 Div, but does show a 15-man Squad for the Sep39 model, then 12 for the Jun40 modification, and finally 11-men for the Apr41 version.

It's odd the 15-man Squad doesn't seem to be picked up by either Zaloga&Ness or Sharp. I've seen some differences between the Red Army Handbook and contemporary info, but I still mostly trust the Handbook. I've posted a message on Axis History forum's Red Army section and if it gets a response I'll post here.

Gary

It's odd the 15-man Squad doesn't seem to be picked up by either Zaloga&Ness or Sharp.

Sharp is one of the references used by Zaloga and Ness, so it could be a case of passing an error along if the 12-man squad is incorrect.
Hopefully your query on AHF bears fruit!

Yes, Gary has it exactly right. Diagram #5 on the link he provided explains that the rifle company consisted of 3 platoons, each with four 15-man squads (shtat 04/20, September 13, 1939), which was changed to 12-man squads with shtat 04/101 (June 10, 1940) and finally 11-man squads with shtat 04/401 (April 5, 1941).

I think that settles the matter. Surprisingly, Nafziger, Sharp and seemingly Zaloga have all got it wrong (perhaps they were looking at later information). It's also quite possible that there was a 12-man organization before Septembr 13, 1939 that was used for Poland, Nomonhan etc. Poland, for example, could have well been over before the September 13, 1939 organization could be implemented. The Winter War, however, was most likely fought with the 15-man organization.

Here's another interesting observation. The RKKA website also gives the Sept. 13, 1939 Infantry Regiment as containing a 37-man chemical platoon and a 48-man pioneer platoon:

rkka.ru/org/str/rr0939.html

Well, at least I am pretty sure the "Can." in "Can. Mack." is short for "саперный" ("sapernyy"). Presumably, "Mack." is short for "маскировочный" ("maskirovochnyy") or "camouflage". This seems to match up with the Osprey book "Finnish Soldier vs Soviet Soldier," which describes the rifle regiment as having a "pioneer and chemical platoon (85 men between them)"… 37-man chemical platoon plus 48-man pioneer platoon does indeed add up to 85.

It is also worth noting that Osprey describes a 7-man pioneer squad in each rifle battalion, but the only 7-man team described on the RKKA website image above is a sanitary section ("санитарная отделение," or "sanitarnaya otdeleniye"), so my guess is Osprey made a slight error and there actually is no pioneer squad in the rifle battalion.

Now Zaloga's Red Army Handbook seems to describe the regiment as having 12 flamethrowers… that would be 3-man flamethrower teams, plus a platoon leader (for 37 men total). If we can assume the pioneer platoon (48-men) also has 15-men squads, like the rifle platoons, that makes 3 squads (one for each battalion) and 3 officers. It could also be 4x 12-man squads, with no platoon leader (which would seem strange).

Any ideas on what the engineering platoon and squad might have looked like? Does 15-men seem reasonable, and would they have an integral LMG?

I looked at a lot of Red Army stuff a while back and did a crash course in Cyrillic courtesy of modern online translation sites. Looking at the graphic linked above, the clutch of subunits in the upper left hand should be (by personnel strength);

Staff – 14
Signal Coy – 104
AA Coy – 52

Recce Pl (horse) – 41
Recce Pl (inf) – 62
CW Pl – 37
Command Pl – 53
Sapper Pl – 48

Over to the right are the easily identifiable support Coys;

Atk Bty (45-mm) – 66
Inf Gun Bty (76-mm) – 159
120-mm Mortar Pl – 41

Then the three Inf Bns, 996 each. That makes 3670, so the graphic excludes a lot of Regtl service units, usually a Medical Coy, Transport Coy and small veterinary and repair dets.

I've seen the sapper/pioneer unit termed as ñàïåðíàÿ or similar, but tagging camo on the end seems reasonable. The graphic looks to show a 48-man Platoon, which is a bit of a surprise as the Apr41 Regt had an 85-man Sapper Coy, which shrunk to a Platoon from late 1941 onwards. Likewise the Chemical Platoon looks a little large at 37-men, the Apr41 version being only 20-men strong.

The Apr41 Sapper Coy had a small HQ plus a horse transport det and two Pls, each 38-men. Pls were an officer, Pl Sgt, four Sgts and 32 sappers, so assume four Squads of nine-men each, with one SMG per Squad but no LMGs. The Apr41 CW Pl was just a HQ, one Squad (13-men) for observation and detection and another Squad (4-men) for degassing/decontamination.

I'd agree that the Rifle Bn Pioneer Squad seen by Osprey is actually a Medical Det. The flamethrowers, Zaloga has down under the Sapper Coy, but the only times I've seen them during the war are in the Dec41 and Mar42 Regts, when they were in a separate Flame Pl; 25-men overall for 20 flamethrowers in the Dec41 model, so no teams as might be expected.

The total 108 LMGs shown in the graphic suggests just 1 LMG per Rifle Squad, assuming four Squads per Rifle Pl. The Red Army wasn't as lavish with LMGs as some armies, they only show for the Recce Pls, Rifle Pls and the Commandant Pl in Apr41 at least, then only with Rifle Pls from after that time.

And from my post over on AxHis, from a trustworthy source came the answer that the Sep39 Rifle Pl was a 5-man HQ and four Squads of 14-men each (with 1 LMG and 1 grenade launcher per Sqd). I know, different again…

Gary

The smallish sapper platoon and the largeish chemical platoon in the 1939 organization is not that surprising, when you think about it. The 1939 Red Army (like nearly every army aside from the Germans, who had the "luxury" of being forced to build a new army from the ground-up in the 1930's) was based very much on the experience of WW1. Flamethrowers were a deciding factor in late-WW1, as was artillery and chemical warfare. Engineers had a role to play in WW1, of course, but the expectation was that sappers were mostly going to be used against major fortresses (when an independent sapper battalion could be called up to the front anyway). The same could explain the small Rifle Company HQ (just one lonely captain), as the maneuver element was really the entire company together. The CO would never be that disconnected from his rifle platoons, in theory. Osprey's Soviet Riflemen 1941-45 talks a little about this mass maneuvering when the company was on the advance.

The Winter War probably left a big impression on Red Army planners. The KV-2 came out of the war, if I recall correctly, because the Soviets needed a bunker busting tank. The increase from a pioneer platoon to a pioneer company after the war may have been for the same reason.

The 14-man squad sounds like it is counted enlisted men and not NCOs, to me… I think there is more than enough evidence to say fifteen is the appropriate on-paper strength for the Winter War period.

No LMGs in the pioneer platoon seems right… As you mentioned, the 1939 organizational structure doesn't include enough LMGs for anything other than the rifle squads. 2-man flamthrower teams also seems reasonable, as you really don't need more than two people to operate the ROKS-2. In retrospect, the chemical platoon probably didn't need to follow squad organization at all. It would have included equipment maintenance teams, chemical protection and defense teams (for the dreaded mustard gas etc. that never ended up receiving an encore in WW2). These would be parcelled out as needed.

Similarly, the pioneers would likely be parcelled out as needed as well. If you were going to blow an enemy pillbox, you would first figure out the amount of explosives needed (estimating the material and thickness of the bunker walls), requisition the appropriate amount of explosives, and then assign enough pioneer personnel to be able to carry that much explosives. It might only take 5 sappers… It might take 20. It seems a little adhoc for the Red Army, but then again, strict squad organization wouldn't make sense when you needed the flexiblity to deal with every obstacle differently.

Does that seem more reasonable?

It's odd the 15-man Squad doesn't seem to be picked up by either Zaloga&Ness or Sharp. I've seen some differences between the Red Army Handbook and contemporary info, but I still mostly trust the Handbook.

My copy of Zaloga & Ness certainly mentions the 15 man squad (I double-checked a few days ago), though I do not have my copy at hand to give a page number.

It also gives platoon strength as 62 men, though details about the platoon HQ are not given.

Mystery solved re the Handbook, they've updated the chapter on infantry since my 1998 copy.

link

The Companion to the Red Army rewrites the description of the 1939 Rifle Regt and does detail the 15-man Squad, while my older copy refers to it as a 12-man Squad. It was bugging me no end as to why I was reading the text so differently from GB's posts, because we've no doubt got different versions of the same book.

It's also now available as an e-book if anyone's having trouble finding a hard copy.

Gary

Indeed, my copy of Zaloga & Ness is the newer 2010 version sold under the title "Companion to the Red Army".

I have previously also read the original one (sometime in the previous decade), but never had opportunity to view them side-by-side, so I was not aware that some things had been changed in the later version.

Anyway, back to the original issue: anybody having an idea what the "provodnik" was supposed to be doing in theory or practice when the unit was manoeuvring in the woods looking for an enemy?

That's great, thanks for squaring away yet another mystery!

Regarding the sapper platoon, the RKKA website and the Wiki article (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Стрелковая_дивизия_РККА) on the personnel of a "normal" rifle division (circa August 8, 1939) gives the sapper "company" staff as 10 men, the "company" itself as 38 men (so 48 men total, which matches the other RKKA reference for Shtat 04/20, September 13, 1939). It further gives the sapper "platoon" as 13 men. Well, if we assume one of the men is a commanding officer, we can neatly come to the figure of:

10-man staff
Platoon leader
Second in Command
3x 12-man sapper sections

I am happy with that number, I think! It also comes close to matching one of the only pictures I could find of Soviet Sappers in the Winter War:

@Griefbringer, the role of the provodnik (observer/guide) is spelled out in a lot more detail in Troops, Weapons, & Tactics. Basically, the observer/guide was essential to the formation, maneuver and performance of the squad (I am convinced now that any game that doesn't take the provodnik's role into consideration simply fails to emulate how the Soviet squad acted in combat in practice… it's completely changed my view of Red Army infantry).

The provodnik would be the best and most reliable soldier in the squad, adept at fieldcraft and reconnaissance, but also shooting, stealth, leadership and courage. In 1939, he would have the one optical scope that was supposed to be issued to every squad (this was dropped after the Winter War, likely because supply was never that high).

His role did involve infiltrating ahead, making visual contact with the enemy, getting the lay of the land and observing enemy movement. He would report back to the "squad leader" ("komot," yes that is an actual military rank title in the Army of Workers and Peasants of 1939, not just a role) and advise him on how to approach and advance in the terrain ahead. But his role was only half about scouting… not only was he the foil in case the squad walked into an ambush (so the rest of the 14 men wouldn't be caught in the trap), he was the physical reference point for the large and unwieldy rifle section. He took point and where he went, the rest of the inexperienced troops would follow and fall into formation. The squad advanced in a line some yards behind the provodnik (the actual distance determined by the terrain, of course): squad leader, DP LMG gunner, assistant gunner and riflemen. When contact was made, the guide fell back into formation beside the squad leader while the gunner and assistant moved up to the other side of the squad leader and with riflemen falling on the furthest left, right or both flanks (this happened simultaneously… the soldiers didn't wait for each other but moved on their own initiative when the order was given).

So the position and activity of the guide essentially prefigured the position and formation of the squad. He was a physical reference point, scout, tactical adviser, sub-leader and, in 1939, a sharpshooter as well. If he fell, a second would be ordered into his position… his role was critical for how the rifle section moved on the battlefield.

I went back to the rkka.ru website and clicked on the link for the Sep39 Rifle Div again, which also offered the option of a download as a spreadsheet. I know that's not always a good idea but I've used the spreadsheet records on there a few times and Norton hasn't gone to Defcon Three yet.

The spreadsheet offers a slightly more detailed breakdown, but not complete info. Overall the Regt shows as;

Regtl Staff – 14
Sigs Coy – 104
AA Coy – 62 (three quad AA plus six 12.7-mm AA guns)
Commandant Pl – 53
Inf Recce Pl – 62 (four Squads, each 14)
Cav Recce Pl – 41
Band – 13
Political Dept – 3
Welfare Dept (?) – 5
Workshops – 12 + 8 + 16
Medical – 80
Veterinary – 23
Transport Coy – 172

Atk Bty – 66 (six 45-mm guns)
Inf Gun Bty – 159 (six 76-mm guns)
Mortar Pl – 41 (four 120-mm mrtrs)
CW Pl – 37
Sapper 'masking' Pl – 48

Three Rifle Bns, each 996 –

Bn HQ – 4
Inf Recce Pl – 62
Sigs Pl – 44
Sup/Tpt Pl – 43
Medical Det – 7
Mortar Pl – 20 (four 82-mm mrtrs)
Atk Gun Pl – 18 (two 45-mm guns)

Three Rifle Coys; each 234

Coy HQ Det – 13
Three Rifle Pls, each – 62 (HQ Det 5, four Squads each 14)
MG Pl – 22 (two HMGs + 2 atk rifles)
Mortar Squad – 11 (assume three 50-mm mrtrs)

Machine Gun Coy; 94

Coy HQ Det – 8
Three MG Pls, each – 28 (four HMGs per Pl)

Total Regt 4035 (123 officers, 100 political/technical/warrant officers, 458 sergeants, 3354 rank & file)

Before anyone gets the calculator out, the figures above don't meet the totals. The Rifle Bn totals 994 from the figures, not 996, the Regt totals 4007, not 4035. From my first run-ins with Red Army tables it was confusing to find that sometimes commanders would be counted outside of their particular HQ det, which is I suspect the case here.

The query I posted re the Rifle Squad over on Axis History did flag up the bring up the option of a Pl HQ Det of 5, plus four Squads of 14 each, plus the Pl Cmdr to get to 62.

The Sapper Pl's full title is ÑÀÏÅÐÍÎ-ÌÀÑÊÈÐÎÂÎ×ÍÛÉ ÂÇÂÎÄ
which does seem to translate as Sapper/Masking or camouflage. If they did have a dual purpose as sapper and camo duties I don't know they'd have had a neat Section/Squad split. If they did, and that was based on 38 men, I'd tend to think it was two elements of 19-men myself.

Gary

I suppose that is also possible, but how then do you account for the 13-man sapper squad number given on the August '39 peacetime chart (which adds up to the total 48 of the Shtat 04/20 given a month later)? I mean, we might just assume it is an abberation and ignore it (it doesn't fit perfectly with my theory either, in any case).

As far as the "masking," I could read it either way. It is true that, during the Winter War, sapper actions almost always involved sneaking up to a bunker on the Mannerheim line under the cover of darkness and blowing it up. At the same time, when sappers weren't blowing things up, they were building dugouts, entrenchments and fortifications for their own side. Invariably these were concealed with branches and dirt mounds… so the certainly were in the business of concealing and camouflaging forward positons from the enemy.

In the case of the 14-man rifle squad, I strongly suspect the 5-man platoon HQ detachment consists of the Platoon 2iC and the squad leaders of the four rifle squads. Remember, the Red Army in 1939 did not have a clear, modernized rank structure… after the political purges of the 1930's, squad and platoon leaders had the unglamorously drab title ranks of "Otdelenniy Komandir" ("squad leader") and "Komzvoda" ("platoon leader") much more frequently than "sergeant" and lieutenant" (officer pedigree being viewed with suspicion, at best). While they were all just peasants with rifles, the "squad leader" rank was very likely considered part of the platoon HQ for the purpose of organizational charts. On the battlefield, however, the literature is very clear that squad leaders fought alongside their squads (not in an HQ section). For gaming purposes, I would use 15-man squads and a 2-man HQ element.

Right, I can see where you're coming from re the figures for the Sappers now; you're looking at the strength of a Platoon from the Sapper Battalion proper (38-men) for the August 1939 Rifle Div, then extrapolating that to the Sapper unit of the Rifle Regt in the Sep39 Rifle Div?

If that's the case I'll still disagree, but for slightly different reasons. First off I think the Aug39 Rifle Div is a reduced strength formation, with lots of units pared back and some just a cadre, so subunit strengths within it I don't think would naturally flow to the Sep39 model, which should be the full strength ideal. Also I don't think there's a correlation between the organisation of the Sapper Coy in the Rifle Regt and the Sapper Coys in the Sapper Bn proper.

The full strength Sep39 Sapper Bn shows each Coy with three Pls of 37-men each while the Rifle Regt has a 48-man Pl; the reduced strength Aug39 model shows each Sapper Coy proper with two Pls of 38-men each, with the Rifle Regt having just 13-men.

I can't find any more to go on re the Rifle Pl org. Normally I'd expect Pl HQ to be padded out by at least one NCO and one runner, but it's entirely possible they just listed all the leadership roles under the HQ det, given the particularities of the army and period!

Gary