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"SS Armor at Kharkov" Topic

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jaxenro09 Nov 2016 5:02 a.m. PST

I know I have seen this somewhere but I can find it going through all my references. I am looking for the number of AFV's by type for the three SS divisions for early spring 1943. I know these were tabulated monthly for every division does anyone know of a place this exists online?

Something like:

January 1943 2nd SS Division:
PzKpfw III J – 42
PzKpfw IV F2 – 21
T-34/76 – 21
Stug III 7.5/24 – 6

(I made the numbers up don't use them)

idontbelieveit09 Nov 2016 5:53 a.m. PST

i found this with a quick search – maybe you can follow-up with them?


Martin Rapier09 Nov 2016 7:08 a.m. PST

I thin the detailed numbers will only be found in books, and quite obscure books at that.

Jentz's 'Panzertruppen' Volume II has listings for all divisions and GHQ panzer units on all fronts, but only the Panzer regiments, not any attached stug or panzerjaeger battalions.

I can't recall if it includes strengths for Kharkov, I guess not as otherwise the Axis History guys would have picked it up.

jaxenro09 Nov 2016 9:06 a.m. PST

Totenkopf 1939-43 by Solarz has some of this for 3rd division including a neat chart for 4th kompanie Schwere including turret numbers

9 tigers and 10 panzer iii's although I don't know what ausf

It also has division totals

Martin Rapier09 Nov 2016 9:27 a.m. PST

All three of the SS Panzer Divs had the Tiger companies, they were just the standard Tiger Company organisation in early 43. Nine Tigers and 10 Mark IIIs (in theory all Ns, but in practice a mixture).

They were upgraded to full Tiger companies in April 43 and the extra tanks were actually shipped out to them in May.

jaxenro09 Nov 2016 10:53 a.m. PST

Found a picture of a L that has turret markings placing it in this company

It's a start

Starfury Rider09 Nov 2016 1:05 p.m. PST

These are figures from "Fire Brigades" by Kamen Nevenkin, all dated 1st July 1943;

1 SS Pz Div;
Pz III – 13 (+8)
Pz IV – 87 (+4)
Pz V – nil
Pz VI – 14 (+14)
Stug – 35

2 SS Pz Div;
Pz III – 60 (+9)
Pz IV – 28 (+6)
Pz V – nil
Pz VI – 12 (+2)
Stug – 33 (+1)

3 SS Pz Div;
Pz III – 58 (+8)
Pz IV – 40 (+11)
Pz V – nil
Pz VI – 10 (+2)
Stug – 55 (+8)

The first number I understand indicates vehicles with units and ready for use, the number in brackets those in 'short term' repair, which is stated as meaning up to three weeks. The author says all figures are from surviving monthly condition reports.

Panzer Truppen Volume 2 by Jentz gives the following;

1 SS Pz Div;
Pz III – 13 (10 long, 3 short gun)
Pz IV – 67 (all long gun)
Pz VI – 13

2 SS Pz Div;
Pz III – 62 (all long)
Pz IV – 33 (all long)
Pz VI – 14
T-34 – 25

3 SS Pz Div;
Pz III – 63 (all long)
Pz IV – 52 (8 short gun, 44 long)
Pz VI – 15

If you're looking for web sources, try searching for post by a 'Martin Block'. He's provided lots of info on deliveries of AFVs across a few forums, but I don't think he's got a website with all the stuff on.


jaxenro09 Nov 2016 1:32 p.m. PST

I know 2nd and 3rd also fielded T-34/76's but I don't think they are listed so easily

deephorse10 Nov 2016 8:17 a.m. PST

SS-Panzerkorps in the battle for Kharkov 01-03.1943, by Trojca & Trojca naturally has a wealth of information on this subject. Unfortunately it is spread throughout the 506 pages and not tabulated anywhere. I've had this book for a number of years but have done little more than thumb through it looking at the wonderful photos.

However, stimulated by this post, I did look a little deeper and found this example of what it contains which might be of some use to you.

On the evening of 13 Feb. 1943 the LSSAH reported the following combat-ready armoured vehicles and anti-tank equipments;
12 x PzII
12 x PzIII
41 x PzIV
21 x StuG III
10 x 3.7cm on SdKfz 7/2
8 x 8.8cm Flak
9 x 7.5cm Pak 40
31 x 5cm Pak 38
5 x 3.7cm Pak 35/36

All Tigers of 4. s.Pz.Kp./Pz.Rgt. LSSAH were either being repaired or undergoing technical inspection.

jaxenro10 Nov 2016 6:15 p.m. PST

Is the book worth looking for?

deephorse11 Nov 2016 4:00 p.m. PST

As with everything, it's all relative. I'd say yes, obviously, but then I can't resist books like this. 506 pages, hundreds of photos, most probably not published before, colour profiles of equipment, very detailed accounts of unit actions, good maps and quality glossy paper. Not something I'll ever read cover to cover, but I enjoy dipping into it for reasons such as your post.

Lee49408 Jan 2017 6:04 p.m. PST

Everything you could ever want, including some day by day data, can be found in Kursk 1943 A Statisical Analysis by Niklas Zetterling and Anders Frankson. Zetterling has also produced the most comprehensive study of the German units in Normandy including TOE for every division and tank strengths by type and day for Panzer Divisions. He studied over 100,000 documents to get the data. I use both books as primary sources for my rules including Armored Action Command for Micro scale. Cheers! Lee

Martin Rapier09 Jan 2017 12:14 a.m. PST

But there are of course known errors with Zetterlings figures, the most obvious being 21st Panzer. That is the trouble with relying on official records, particularly when the authors falsified them…

However, in the main they are very useful.

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