"28mm Polish lancer of the Guard Kettledrummer 1812" Topic

Gringo40s will have available the colourful and resplendent
uniform in the shape of the Polish lancer of the Guard in 28mm at CRISIS ..not yet on our site but photos due soon
the kettledrummer went "missing" on the retreat from Russia
in 1812 and hes position was not filled. the figure is depicted in Gala uniform as worn prior to the departure
to Russia.

regards
Ged
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and he will take little conversion of the horse furniture to serve for 2e Dutch Lancers too!

Look forward to seeing him.

Well, no sooner posted than I get a picture from Ged. Here is the timbalier in all his glory (and as seen by Rousellot)

Just for reference couple more well known images;

Thats going to look great painted up. Good work!

Miss the rear point on the shabraque? right epaulette? length of skirt?

Nice one!

First the right epaulette. Well, I had never even imagined one, but I guess he is a "lancer" so just maybe. Every picture seems to be of the drummer's left side eg Courcelle, Rousellot,…and I have several more of them. Andre Joineau shows him head on (no other attempts to show that view that I can find) with no such decoration. It may just be that there is something peeking through on this model though;

The shabraque? Definitely should not be as pointed as for the 2e Dutch Lancers of the Guard. Indeed, again, Joineau shows Polish one squared off. I think that is a convincing finish, if only to contrast with 2e. Snag is it makes conversion harder as I suggested above! Many images seem to confuse the two regts' drummers also.

The miniskirt? Every image does show it just below the knee, I agree………this chap has long legs and is a fashionista though!

Deadhead will be making and 2nd Dutch lancer version
old chap…………….makes perfect sense as its plainer
with a slightly different drummer…
thanks for postings!

cheers
Ged

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Thank God, you saved me the job of a conversion then!

This one will be more spectacular, but a greater challenge to paint!

agreed the apogee of sumptuous Napoleonic Garb !!
and one of my favourites!

The original source for the kettledrummer would be, in all likelihood, this engraving after Percier et Fontaine (which also shows, among others, a full military band on the balconies, probably the guard grenadiers band):

link

I assume that the Martinet plate seen here was made after this engraving (rather than vice versa):

link

Anyway, both appear to date from 1810.

Great pair of pictures. On the first print, the drummer is probably the best of some very dodgy "uniformology" within, but the overall impression is superb. The second is a highly detailed image, which I had never seen before. Funny how, always, the left side is shown……….

Came across a monochrome illustration from a very old Osprey. The legend to it claims that the musicians, such as him, were likely simply the trumpeters rigged especially for grand occasions. But this does not look remotely like a kurtka worn under a tabard outfit. Not too sure about a right sided fringed epaulette, then.

Why fit one to a jacket where it will never be seen? Granted one of the pictures I posted does suggest it!

Interesting seeing the differences between the print and the figure, and the impact that "heroic scale" has on some proportions, but an interesting figure. How Ged makes his money back on these I have no idea, but I applaud his efforts to make a complete range

On the print after Percier/Fontaine the kettledrummer looks simplified, as do the trumpeters who are also represented. Moreover, the print appears to have been coloured inaccurately (happens time and again, also with Martinet plates, occasionally, as the prints usually were coloured by employees more or less carefully).

The Martinet plate has the costume of the drummer carefully elaborated, but, in all probability, still not precisely accurate (to judge from the apparently extant shabraque conserved in the Warsaw army museum) .

Kettledrummers apparently were chosen from among the trumpeters, like the rest of the bandsmen. However, neither the trumpeters nor the bandsmen wore a costume such as this for parade.

Can't see a kurtka either. In my opinion, this costume was completely different from the regimental uniform. Of distinctly Polish/Eastern European style. Cf. also the baggy trousers. No epaulettes, in my opinion. I found a popular print of uncertain date (dress details and colours different again) showing the right side. Again, no epaulette (from Trésor du Patrimoine. La Grande Armée, 2004, p.112):

Another print after Percier/Fontaine shows a trompette-major and trumpeters of what must represent those of the Polish lancers of the guard, again on the occasion of the 1810 marriage. The uniform clearly is the kurtka, etc. but, on the whole, looks quite different from what is known to be the official parade dress of the trumpeters of this corps. I wonder whether there was a very special "gala-parade dress" – for other units as well – just for this occasion (have seen indications which could corroborate such an assumption, elsewhere).

Or it is the uniform worn by trumpeters when acting as bandsmen. On the front of the coat of the trumpeter at the left, I see strips of braid (cf. the Barthel plate, below):

link

Finally, a contemporary maker of paper soldiers from Strasbourg, Barthel, has published c.1810 a plate representing the band of the Polish lancers of the Guard, to judge from the kettledrummer which is no other than Martinet's kettledrummer (shown not actually from the right but just printed in a reversed way (look at the position of the plume, for instance; the sabre, however, was correctly omitted as one would not have seen it from the right). If so, this uniform would be blue, etc.; cf. the Percier/Fontaine illustration of trumpet-major and trumpeters above). From Paul Martin, Les Petits Soldats de Strasbourg, 1950, p.15.

What superb research has gone into this…….

Leave it to the professionals to find high level contemporary evidence!

Thanks so much for major effort in this

Finally got a sneak preview of him painted up!

Order put in over the weekend, but I get the impression Ged is swamped right now………… says Crisis proved highly successful, but he will not be getting out much for a while I think!

No sooner posted than another pic to me via e mail.

Finally worked out how to convert a pdf to JPEG format!

better man then me Deadhead!!

Scharnachthal interesting research…

regards
Ged
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Regarding the print from Trésor du Patrimoine: Judging from the lilies on drum banner and shabraque, this illustration – clearly a reversed and reworked blueprint of Martinet's print – may be meant to represent the kettledrummer of the "Corps Royal des Chevau-légers Lanciers de France", formerly the Red Lancers (the Polish lancers were never part of the Bourbon army). So, in my opinion, this is most likely a print dating to the First Restauration (the unit was disbanded for good after Waterloo).

Scharnachthal………….I tend to agree with your resume
on the Red lancer Kettledrummer pre 100 days during the
Restauration and have been looking for a decent hard copy
of "Les Petits soldats deStrasbourg" ..there is one on e-bay
by J P klein (ALSACE) would this be the best version..as I collect hard copy books and plates of the period…and am looking for the best quality reproductions of the plates
.

cheers
Ged
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jammy four

There are several smaller books on the paper soldiers of Alsace/Strasbourg. I'd say they are complementary rather than comprehensive. None of them contains illustrations of all the existing paper soldiers, but good selections, starting with late 18th century samples (e.g., you will find the Barthel plate I posted above in Paul Martin's book only, not in the others). So each is interesting in itself. Of course, the language is French. Most books are available second hand only. You've mentioned Jean-Pierre Klein, "Les petits soldats de Strasbourg". Good catalogue, certainly the most comprehensive of all and probably the best in terms of reproduction quality. I also recommend:

Paul Martin, "Les petits soldats de Strasbourg" (second hand)

François Lotz, "Les petits soldats d'Alsace" (second hand)

More interesting literature but rare:

"Collection Boersch. Petits soldats d'Alsace d'époque Premier Empire" (1971)

"Petits soldats de Strasbourg. Ouvrages de documentation relatifs à l'histoire militaire et aux uniformes. Imagerie militaire" (1972)

Still available but quite slim:

link

Quite a number of illustrated paper soldiers can be found here as well but, unfortunately, the book seems not available at a reasonable price, at the moment:

link

Finally, there is a website dedicated to the Alsace/Strasbourg paper soldiers. Lot of interesting material. Check it out:

link

As for the kettledrummer of the Red Lancers, the one paper soldier figure I know is by Boersch (1782-1824). He was married to the niece of the important contemporary military painter Benjamin Zix ( link ) and active during the Empire (especially from 1810) and during the Restauration, so he should be quite reliable. Interestingly, his figure is almost not distinguishable from the one of the Polish lancers (as far as I remember I found this on the website mentioned above):

Now that is proper research. All I have is various pictures from the Internet, models or published prints.

The drum banner is much plainer and the shabraque in a different and simpler style

Note also the difference in head gear, colour of pantaloons, plumes etc. One has the Polish style collar, Knotel has the more contemporary high closed collar.

Joiuineau tells us of two variants in Vol 3 "The French Imperial Guard". The simpler one is from a Rigo plate, itself derived from the Boersch Collection. The Knotel version with blue added may be from the Alsace Collection, via Bucquoy?…or at least that is how I read it.

Boersch's figure shows a front view, we don't see how the shabraque actually looked like. But what we can see is not that different from what Martinet shows for the kettledrummer of the Polish lancers.

Here is the Polish lancers' kettledrummer by Boersch, unfortunately, in black and white only. Again, it's just a front view. The differences are minimal, in my opinion. Basically, the style of uniform and horse gear is identical.

However, contrary to the Red lancers' kettledrummer, the shabraque is clearly visible, indeed, indicating a big "rectangular" shaped shabraque as seen with Percier/Fontaine, Martinet, Barthel, while the shabraque of the Red lancers' kettledrummer remains invisible (from Collection Boersch, 1971, p.33).:

Regarding the shabraque of the kettledrummer of the Red lancers, the presumed First Restauration era kettledrummer seen above appears to be our only (near-)contemporary clue. His shabraque is quite similar to that of the Polish lancers' kettledrummer in terms of shape and resplendence. Consequently, I would have expected a large shabraque similar to that of the kettledrummer of the Polish lancers for the kettledrummer of the Red lancers as well…But, maybe, that Restoration era print is inaccurate. How can we know?

Can't tell from which – contemporary! – source (if any) the Knötel and Jouineau shabraques have been derived (same goes for the high collar of the costume)…

Scharnachthal

thanks for all the excellent input uniform wise
I have just purchased Jeanne Pierre Kleins version
of the plates and was wondering whether to add
the "slim" Regimsnts de Papier etc currently available.

as to shabraques my assumption based on all the information
we have to a hand including your excellent findings is there
must have been a fair degree of crossover in the regimental
bands as these cost an absolute fortune for the day so maybe they were hand produced in the same workshop …in essence the Red lancers and poles combined some of their resources….. I wish there was a regimental history for both regiments…I have Cuirassiers,dragoons,Huassars..well some of them and a couple of line chasseur a cheval.there are memoires DeBrack and a polish trooper whose name escapes me but these memoires often allude to small details] on the bands.
I was wondering if Forthoffer had these units covered.dont think so..need to check the pile!!

cheers
Ged
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jammy four

You're welcome.

…in essence the Red lancers and poles combined some of their resources…

There is an interesting anonymous painting which may corroborate this view – specifically for the year 1813 – and which I do not want to withhold from you.

This painting, dating from either 1813 or, at worst, probably, from only a few years after the Napoleonic wars, unfortunately was destroyed during WWII. All that remains is a black and white photograph, preserved at the University library of Dresden:

link

Until recently, a high resolution reproduction of this photo could be seen on the internet. Has vanished now, unfortunately. The caption of the painting reads:

"Große Revue des Kaisers Napoleon, an dessen Namenstage am 10. August 1813 auf der großen Ostrawiese bei Dresden"

Meaning:

"Great review of the Emperor Napoleon on his Saint's day on 10 August 1813 on the Ostra meadow near Dresden"

First thing you have to remember: 15 August, Napoleon's birthday, Catholic "Assumption of Mary", was renamed "Saint Napoleon's Day" during the Empire.

Second, in 1813, Saint Napoleon's Day was brought forward to 10 August due to the fact that the truce with the Allies ended after this day, for which reason 15 August most likely would have fallen in the midst of renewed hostilities and one would not have had the opportunity to celebrate.

The painting shows a lot of interesting details, some familiar, others exceptional. Especially, the well recognizable band of the guard grenadiers and the fanfare of the guard lancers are displaying some strange features. It's impossible to say whether these are artist's errors or are due to the exceptional circumstances of this troubling year after the abortive Russian campaign.

In the left foreground one recognizes the trumpets and kettledrummer of what must be guard lancers. It's not clear, however, which regiment they belong to, especially as the colours are lost. One can only guess the colours by comparing the hues of grey with, e.g. the hues of grey of the well known colours for the guard grenadiers. In my opinion, there are mixed features of both the 1st and 2nd lancers, so, possibly, this was meant to represent a corps combined of both regiments.

The kettledrummer is a most interesting figure. His uniform looks very much like that of the trumpeters, with some additional braid. The drum banners: What do they represent? Golden bees on a white ground? I really don't know. The shabraque looks simple, compared to those of the Martinet, etc., prints. Like those of the trumpeters but edged with two stripes instead of only one.

As far as I know the kettledrummer of the Polish lancers was not replaced after his loss in Russia, so the one shown would have been the kettledrummer of the Red Lancers – but acting for both regiments?

However, as virtually nothing is known about the painting – neither date, nor artist, nor colours – I must abstain from any further attempt to describe it.

This is a high resolution image detail showing the trumpet corps and kettledrummer of the lancers:

It is a great painting and again a great find. What a loss to posterity.

Odd features as you say. Both the fringed epaulette and the aigulettes on the right shoulder for example. the former yes, the latter no. No crowned N on the shabraque would do for 2e Lancers indeed, whilst the troopers look Polish. Just as you, say evidence of mix and match.

Artistic style…..1813-1830 ish indeed. Nearer former I would guess. Wish we could see that full picture in higher resolution indeed! Horses' poses, their small heads, tiny feet on the humans all very early 19th C looking to me.

Scharnachthal

great post…never seen this before .
reminds me of a conversation I had
with an old mate Emir bukari who wrote
the early Napoleonic French cavalry men
at arms. my impression and my opinion
was the kettledrummer from the Polish
lancers was included to overawe the Russins
upon reaching Moscow and the more prosaic
Red lancers kettledrummer was left behind
with the cadre of the first company first squadron
.so the plainer saddlecloth was available for the
parade. we discussed the paucity of equipment
for even the line chasseurs a cheval…before
we even get to the horse shortages!.
as we know the Guard cavalry always received
the best recruits and equipment but in 1813
even they were short on many items including
saddlecloths….he said the Guard in 1813
and especially the lancers were short on equipment
and men having lost many men in surprise attacks
and some appaling lapses of judgement!

imho looks like a Redlancer kettledrummer..white
horse, plainer saddlecloth…very 100 day ish…
stopped me In my tracks………..

final note could just be an officers horse with
the double band of gold lace..or an undress version
of the gala version.

lots to ponder!!

regards
Ged
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According to this website, the artist was a Friedrich August Schneider (1799-1855):

link

If so, he would have been very young in 1813, only 14, but other artists of greater fame, such as Albrecht Adam, were equally young when producing their first uniform drawings. So, it seems possible that the painting actually dates from 1813, or shortly after.

Alternatively, the painter may have been there as a boy, maybe even made some sketches, but elaborated on memories and/or sketches only after a few years later. To judge from the painting style, not later than c.1830 (as aptly remarked by deadhead before), I'd say. The question must remain unanswered for the time being. Same goes for questions regarding the accuracy of the uniforms shown, logically.

I was under the impression that the

le timbalier fut supprimé lors de départ pour la campagne de Russie

p. 322

Pawly, Roland : Les Lanciers Rouges de la Garde – Historique du 2e Régiment de Chavau-Légers Lanciers de la Garde Impériale

Bruxelles 2008

You have to ask, if it took five years to train an infantry drummer, how long did it take to train the same chap to ride a horse whilst, at the same time…?………..oh forget it. Let's leave that one.

All I know is that I doubt there has never ever been such a gathering of knowledge on this obscure subject. That is what is so great about this forum.

Again, though, in five years time, if anyone asks such a question again, will this be readily to hand?

After this week, most of us in Europe (or on the edge post this Brexit thing…but then my Irish passport is worth its weight in gold) will be glad just to be still around to pose the question!

Von Winterfeldt

you may well be right on this as Ronald Pawly
knows his red
lancers…mine based on a quote
from pre 2008.
and on reflection why leave behind your kettledrummer
when the polish lancers took theres.

cheers
Ged
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I checked the army files of the Red Lancers from 1810 to early 1813 and couldn't find a "timbalier" even for the pre-Russian campaign period (unless I have missed something):

link

On the other hand, there were a lot of "trompettes" and "élèves trompettes".

In my opinion, it's quite possible, that one of the trumpeters was temporarily employed as a kettledrummer – others may have functioned as bandsmen – when necessary (as was usual with the cavalry). However, it's hard to find any references in the files as to the instruments played by the trumpeters on such exceptional occasions (which is the norm even for "musiciens" of the infantry, BTW…)

But, there are exceptions.The kettledrummer of the Polish lancers is one of them. He actually started as a trumpeter and then became kettledrummer. Here is his file:

Louis Robiquet, born 25 February 1787 in Lille, height 1,62 m, arrived at the corps on 1 February 1808, was trumpeter in the 4th company, was transferred to the regimental staff on 1 July 1810 as a kettledrummer. He was in Spain in 1808, in Germany in 1809, was lost at Borisov, Russia, on 26 October 1812.

Scharnachthal

splendid research..great to put a name to the kettledrummer
the mystery deepens on the Red Lancer chap!.some multi-tasking involved ,maybe they had more then one!

cheers
Ged
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Interesting observation: The kettledrummer of the Polish lancers can be seen on the Percier/Fontaine picture showing the celebrations of Napoleon's and Marie- Louise's wedding. These took place on 1st and 2nd April 1810, i.e. months before Robiquet was transferred to the regimental staff of the Polish lancers as a kettledrummer, which happened on 1 July, as we have seen.

As Napoleon's architects, Percier and Fontaine were present and involved into managing the celebrations (e.g., Fontaine was charged with converting a hall of the Louvre into a chapel for the occasion), they seem to be reliable witnesses.

If the kettledrummer of the Polish lancers actually existed in April 1810 though he was mentioned as a kettledrummer in July 1810 only in his file, this would possibly be another indication that the designation "timbalier" was indeed describing a function (or honour) rather than a military rank. Technically, he may have retained the military rank of "trumpeter", which would be in line with what we know about other "bandsmen" of French cavalry units.

I consider it possible, therefore, that the Red lancers had a trumpeter acting as a kettledrummer too but that he was never denoted as such in his file, just by his military rank of "trumpeter" (again: that was normally the case with cavalry bandsmen). So, for us, he would not be recognizable as a kettledrummer. As I mentioned before, it's rather exceptional that Robiquet was called expressly a "timbalier" in his file.

And, of course, it would have been normal and easy for ketteldrummers to revert to their tactical role as trumpeters when necessary – as was normally the case with cavalry bandsmen (being either trumpeters or troopers).

Well, this may raise the question whether Robiquet actually took part in the Russian campaign as a kettledrummer – or whether by then he had resumed his duties as a trumpeter…;-)

This is professional historical research. It is an obscure topic…but the resulting review is unique.

I can only hope this would come up on some search engine, such as Google, in five years time if someone wants to learn more about the Timbalier from these two units.

I confess to flogging this concern to death, but how much info is here on this forum, but only if you can find it, that could be invaluable one day? The answer may well be that IT is increasing in potential exponentially and in five years time…who knows?

My fear is that all that will happen is that there will be even more social media and "celebrities" ("Charmaine breaks up with love rat Wayne"….who are these nonentities and why would I want to know, when in a checkout queue….a line, to our US cousins?)

My two lads are now History graduates and are pursuing this further. I always wanted to do that, but chose the easy path. Respect!

Scharnachthal

been looking in detail at all my information
on the Polish lancers of the Guard and it seems
they did indeed have a small but splendid band
comprising Ten men ( trumpet trained at least)
under the direction of a "Marechal des logis"
these are mentioned in the correspondence
of Dautancourt..I found this information in the
splendid "les Trompettes de cavaleire sous l Empire
by Yves Martin and Vincent Bourgeol..a lIvre chez vous mega tome ,lavish to the enth degree and covers EVERY French cavalry unit in colour and reasonable depth.
cheers
Ged
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In-depth research can really drive you mad…;-)

Remember this illustration by Percier et Fontaine showing the kettledrummer of the Polish lancers among the parading troops?:

link

Now, I found another version, apparently contemporary as well (though I cannot be sure as there is no reference as to who was the author of the picture). Unfortunately, the resolution is rather low but, nevertheless, it is clearly recognizable that this quite differently and more lavishly coloured version does not (!) represent the kettledrummer. Instead we just see another trooper:

(from here: link )

Now, this raises the question whether Percier and Fontaine – or, perhaps, the engraver who used their drawings as templates, rather – fudged a little in order to include this magnificently dressed musician.

Still, both versions may date from 1810 but if the version without the kettledrummer actually was the original one, trumpeter Robiquet's first public appearance as a kettledrummer may actually not have taken place before his official appointment to "timbalier" on 1 July 1810 (as stated e.g. by Ronald Pawly, Osprey MAA 440).

Anyway, whether the kettledrummer was seen for the first time in public before or after 1 July isn't important in terms of uniformology, of course, but the issue as such nevertheless is worth mentioning, I thought…

Scharnachthal

some fascinating detective work there….may have been just a simple omission and a realisation afterwards you cannot leave out such a wonderfully attired figure!!…the key date for the lancier Rouge was indeed 1810…would like to see pictures of the ten man band and the sctual instruments used….anyway great input! makes me even keener to find out more

many thanks
Ged
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