"Lion Rampant Shieldwall vs. Schiltron" Topic

Hello,

I have seen some Dark age conversions of Lion Rampant and the Schiltron rule is simply renamed shield wall.

The one problem my group had with this is that we felt the shield wall should protect better against missile weapons which the Schiltron rule does not.

I am thinking of making shield walls better armored against missile shooting but not close combat.

In essence the reverse of the Schiltron which really represents a mass of spears/pikes.

Any thought if this seems like a reasonable idea.

Thanks

Yeah sounds good to me!
Just up the armour value of troops in a shield wall
Maybe even allow elite foot to form shield wall.

Why not just play Dux Bellorum? Dan Mersey wrote that set specifically for the "Dark Ages".

I have seen it claimed several times that the massed fence of raised pikes in a pike block or schiltron on the march / advance provided a pretty effective barrier to slow/deflect arrow fire.

Thanks for the thought.

steamingdave47

The era I am looking at is the wars of the Anglo-Norman Kings.

William, William Rufus, and Henry.

Which system to you feel captures that slice of time better?

A schiltrom seems a pretty strange proposition for a skirmish game.

I think Louie's thoughts make sense. Dux is for big battles.
While I'm not that familiar with the use of schiltrons, my reading suggests that shield wall formation did not require massive hordes to work. For example, to block the crossing of a ford or bridge, or with the flanks anchored on woods, rocks or water. the issue is the flanks of the shield wall.

Schiltroms are a function of a big actions; minor engagements (for the Scots v. the English )are almost always actions between mounted men-at-arms on both sides.

We – GLC Games Club – ran a Vikings vs Saxons scenario at SELWG earlier this month using Lion Rampant, and introduced Shieldwall as an Ability for Saxons only.

– A unit wanting to form Shieldwall has to successfully test for Move as an ordered action.
– The unit does not move, but is marked as having formed Shieldwall.
– The Shieldwall has no effect in the first round of combat
– If an Attacker frontally charges a unit in Shieldwall a second or subsequent time, the Armour Value of the unit in Sheildwall is increased by 1.
– When a unit in Shieldwall moves either voluntarily or involuntarily, the marker is removed.

The Shieldwall makes it harder to inflict casualties, regardless of how they are caused.

Consul Paulus,

Did you adjust the armor against shooting attacks?

Thanks

Dux Bellorum is an entirely different game. Good, and from the same author, but quite different in basing and style of play.

Louie N,

No, but this was because there were no missile-armed troops present in the game.

A unit of Irish Raiders that included a few bow-armed figures was available, but the situation that would have prompted their introduction never occurred.

In any event, we did not plan on making any adjustments to the rule for missile weapons.

In a different period, with a greater variety of missile weapons available, it may be worthwhile, but not for our Dark Ages scenario.

Louie N-so not really "Dark Ages" at all if you are looking at William and his immediate descendants; the intro to Lion Rampant states that the rules are designed for the Norman period on. Perhaps Dan Mersey might have some thoughts as to how Shieldwall might work,or ask on the DuxRampant forum. Hopefully, you will come up with ideas that work for your group,

duxrampant.yuku.com

@ Pan Narek- I don't see Dux Bellorum as being for big battles at all. The 32 point forces we use generally have about 6 to 8 units tops, perhaps 40 to 90 figures. The 24 point Lion Rampant forces might have 4 to 6 units. I think Mersey actually inducates that a retinue would be 40 to 70 figures, preferably individually based. Neither is what I would call "big battle" rules- for me that would be 20 plus units per side and at least 4 or 5 hundred figures and I would probably use something like Sword and Spear or Hail Caesar.

Schiltrons did the Scotts little good v. English arrows at Dupplin Muir (1332), Haldidon Hill (1333), Neville's Cross (1346) and Homildon Hill (1402).

In any case needs mass to be effect so outside the scope of LionR. Shieldwall though and similar close order formations much needed even at LionR scale.

TomT

Dux Bellorum is a 'small battles' game. After all, each unit nominally represents only about fifty men. It differs fundamentally from Lion Rampant in using multi-figure bases to represent arrayed armies consisting of units with facings, flanks and rear, with the intent of playing field battles typical of the early-mid dark ages – as opposed to LR's fluid minor medieval skirmishes and raids at one-to-one.

Hello All,

Just as a follow as a follow on we played Lion Rampant again last night. It was Scenario B and we used our modified "Shield Wall" rule. We expanded the armor bonus to apply to both close combat and against missile combat.

It worked out well with the Foot Sergeants unit holding the center for quite a while. They were much less prone to being torn apart by missile fire.

The best way to break them was throwing units at it until they failed a courage test and fell back. Then the unit was vulnerable and the knights and missiles poured in.

Reminds me of another battle.

I was happy with the tweak.

Thomas, that was rather my point. Big battles were very rare in the WofI and smaller fights were almost exclusively all-cavalry affairs. Incidentally, schiltrom just means soldiers on foot, no particular formation is implied.