"goths and saxons" Topic

I'm thinking about getting some Goths for the period around the time of Justinian. I'm wondering whether there are serious visible differences between goths and saxons. I'm looking at the GB plastic thegns as dismounted nobles….

I think wargamers like to think they looked more different than they actually were….

Maybe for good reason given the distance between the North Sea and the Black Sea.

Goths in the time of Justinian would presumably have been fairly heavily Romanised. They'd been living in the Empire, serving in (and in some cases leading) its armies, for a couple of generations before they took Rome, and then they'd been living in Italy for over a century before Justinian arrived. So I can imagine there were at least some notable differences in appearance from Saxons. What those were, I don't know.

Maybe for good reason given the distance between the North Sea and the Black Sea.

Actually the Goths emerged from Eastern Germany in mid 2nd century so the geographical distance to ancient Saxony isn't quite that far. Doesn't mean one can use GB figures mind you. The time differential might be more significant. The Saxon Thegns are for a much later time (9th century instead of 5th.)

I bought a box of thegns. I have no Vikings, and intend to enlist them in a mid-Saxon (post 600AD) Christian army for Dux Bellorum. Some will be the companions unit, and the rest will go into noble shieldwall units.

The poses are static and obviously intended for representing a shieldwall.

I can see no details on them that would render them unhistorical in this role: no late DA pointy helmets or two-handed axes – and conveniently, considering my planned use, they wear crucifixes.

Keep in mind that, during Justinian's war in Italy, Procopius speaks of entire Roman units going over to the side of the Goths, and entire Goth units going over to the Romans.

So there's that. Identifying friend from foe might have been a tad bit dicey. That seems to be reinforced by the abilities of the Romans to get in and out of Rome while it was under siege by the Goths. Some of Justinians troops apparently had no problem leaving Rome and getting to Ostia and other places to escort supplies back to Rome.

If you can get a hold of "The Gothic War" by Torsten Jacobsen, he has some good descriptions of the Gothic forces in his appendicies. I found a paperback copy for less than $5 USD on ebay. It's a good read, and his accounts offer some excellent ideas for both campaigns and skirmishes.

Give their helmets horse hair plumes and you are off to the races.

Goths likely have spangenhelm helmets, long Gothic tunics and wide trousers. The tunic and trousers have embroidered bands around the hem of the trousers an the cuffs on the tunic and around the neck and sonetines down the arms and the front page f the trouser leg. Its lijely Gothic clothing was white or off white . Saxobs would have tighter trousers, shorter tunics, had helnets more like Sutton Hoo, or the York helmet. Both have round shield. The poster above who commented on the cross movement between Belisarian Romans and Giths is bang on right.. Thus there will have been a lot of common equipment. Saxons are well away from any Roman source.
There is a strong possibility that invasion period Saxons had smallish round shields and its most likely that Goths had larger round shields…….but the only lijely Goth shield of that period is on a piece of jewellery and thus not to scale. Lastly top Goths mostly fought on horseback. For early representations of Saxobs…well Angles actually look at The Repron Stone and the Aberlemno Stone both are mounted representations, but will give you the look of the warrior.

The Coppergate (York) Helmet
The Repton Stone
Picts and Northumbrians(?) on the Aberlemno 2 Stone (The kirkyard stone), Aberlemno, Angus, Scotland, 9th-10th centuries

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

Saxons of the early period (300-500 AD) were almost a proto-viking force. Lots of heavy infantry, a few elite, with some skirmisher archers. Virtually no true cavalry until later, and even then in small numbers as the nobles. Goths are for all intents and purposes norse-germans who depeloped a powerful cavalry force along with heavy and light infantry. Enough of a difference with the two armies as to make for interesting battles.