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"41st Regiment uniform" Topic

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B6GOBOS Inactive Member26 Oct 2016 1:16 p.m. PST

Just reading "The War of 1812, A Wargamers Guide Part 2" by Charles Glenn and Stephen Manley. Under the section on british regulars they say, "an 1816 inspection return showed the 41st foot still attired in the 1800 shako." I had not seen this before and thought all (most?) British regulars had switched to the newer belgic shako by 1814.

Has anyone else out there seen this reference before? Planning my British forces now that my Amercans are almost done. I wanted to include the 41st for 1814. But which headgear?

IronDuke596 Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2016 2:22 p.m. PST

I have never seen that before re.;"an 1816 inspection return showed the 41st foot still attired in the 1800 shako."

Chartrand states that the 2nd Battalion (incorporated into the 1st by 1814) had the new issue by 1813 and the 1st by December 1813 or early 1814. "The 41st would thus have had the Belgic shako and grey trousers from 1814." Ref: "A Scarlet Coat", p 72-73.

B6GOBOS Inactive Member26 Oct 2016 2:28 p.m. PST

That was my research and was how I was planning on painting the 41st. This little nugget threw me since there is no reference.

troopwo Supporting Member of TMP26 Oct 2016 5:04 p.m. PST

It is correct.
Older style shako for the 41st here in Canada.

attilathepun4726 Oct 2016 10:10 p.m. PST

It is perhaps pertinent that the 41st had been in Canada before the War of 1812 started. Supplies of the new shako should certainly have arrived well before the war ended, but it was common practice to "use up" stocks of older pattern uniforms before issuing new ones. So perhaps there were enough of the older pattern shakos, complete with 41st Foot badges, in store in Canada that they were issued before handing out any of the new ones.

troopwo Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2016 7:20 a.m. PST

It wasn't until a few years after the war that they received the newer style.

They even had enough surplus clothing stores to kit out a few hundred Canadian militia for the siege of Detroit as well.

IronDuke596 Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2016 8:56 a.m. PST

troopwo; what is the source/ref for your conclusion?

troopwo Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2016 11:53 a.m. PST

A lot of their story still exists around me here in my home town. Where they made their name in 1812 as you can say. By the end of the war they were literally a very rag tag group when it came to uniforms.

We used to have a pretty active re-enactment group here in southern Ontario, due to their local history. Fort Malden in Amherstberg is a fifteen minute drive away. They have to just about hand make their shakos just to get them right. They get upset about other groups being able to get away with the later more available and cheaper European Napoleonic style shakos.

Attila is absolutely correct. These guys arrived in Canada years before with a good stock of older stores. Once in Canada and with a active war in Europe and worldwide, they really were at the very end of the supply chain as well.

You might want to confirm the amalgation or incorporation of the second into the first battalion. Most survivors of the first battalion would having been keeping a good eye on who was close to their size as a source of clothing. Probably a right hodge podge on parade at the time.

troopwo Supporting Member of TMP27 Oct 2016 12:06 p.m. PST

I never had a source.
I am one of those strange people who keep some thing alive long after others forget.
But since you ask,,,

Just did some googling for you.

Down near the bottom, under distinguishments, it explains how they had the older stove pipe style shakos probably until their return to Europe.

The second battalion was only about five hundred total strength, surprisingly a small number compared to the first battalion.

The first battalionarrived in Canada in 1799!
Their last major reinforcement was 1809.

IronDuke596 Supporting Member of TMP29 Oct 2016 10:36 a.m. PST

I had forgotten about that article …well spotted/remembered.

Regrettably, the author provides no sources or even a hint as to where the information came from. Nonetheless, the history of the regiment as he relates it, seems accurate.

The 'near the bottom' info that you refer as follows;

"The 1st battalion started the War with pre-1812 pattern "stove-pipe" shakos and might never have been reequipped until returning to Europe. Officer's uniforms had silver buttons and silver lace with a black line centered, applied in the same bastion loop pattern as the enlisted men.

The 2nd battalion almost undoubtedly arrived in Canada with the new 1812 (or "Belgic") shako, although the infantryman's red coat would have been the same as that of a member of the 1st battalion. Officers of the 2nd battalion had gold buttons and gold lace applied in square-ended loops; officers of the 1st battalion and then the amalgamated battalion were also ordered to adopt this pattern."

The statement regarding the 1st Battalion ""…stove-pipe" shakos and might never have been reequipped until returning to Europe" is mere speculation. Still, the article does assert that the second battalion did arrive with newer 1812 issue Belgic shakos.

I prefer to go with Chartrand's assessments as they are based on the Royal Warrants and regimental returns.

B6GOBOS Inactive Member30 Oct 2016 11:41 a.m. PST

Thank you all for the great information. Entry for me to chew over while thinking about it.

I love this War of 1812 board and the people I find here. All extremely polite. All very knowledgeable. And no drama. My favorite place here at TMP.

huevans01114 Nov 2016 4:21 p.m. PST

I wonder the supporting documents for the assertion that the 2nd Bn used the Belgic shako? Spring 1813 is still quite early in the era of the Belgic and this unit too could have been using up stocks of the old stovepipe.

B6GOBOS Inactive Member20 Nov 2016 11:30 a.m. PST

Curious that recent illustrations all show 41st I. White trousers. I think Forrest Harris in a blog entry on figures for Lundys lane suggests they continued wearing white trousers rather then gray. Again any source for this?

Eamonn1812 Inactive Member16 Dec 2016 12:01 p.m. PST

Hi all,
No inspection returns exist for the 41st in 1816. Coincidentally, I was just in the UK National Archives on Tuesday looking for them (WO 27/137 and WO 27/138) for a research project of mine and came up empty-handed. It would therefore seem that Glenn and Manley are in error.
Chartrand's book on the subject is authoritative, and his conclusions on this point are correct. Inspection returns and confidential reports for the 41st do survive from May and October 1815, at Quebec and Paris respectively (WO 27/133 and WO 27/134). Caps aren't specifically mentioned, but both inspecting officers note that the regiment's clothing was conformable to regulation, notwithstanding a lack of uniformity amongst the accoutrements, some of the belts (supplied by the Ordnance Store in Quebec) having buckles instead of proper 41st regimental breastplates. If the regiment had also been committing the much graver sartorial sin of still wearing stovepipes, this would surely have been mentioned also. The notion that the 41st had not received Belgics by 1815 or 1816 is plainly wrong.
As Chartrand suggests, some units in North America received the new pattern caps in 1813, and virtually all were wearing them from 1814. For the final Niagara campaign, we know with virtual certainty that the 41st sported the new 'Belgic' caps.

B6GOBOS Inactive Member16 Dec 2016 6:21 p.m. PST

Eamonn1812, many thanks for this. I am grateful you shared your research with are the best!

Dave Holden05 Mar 2017 11:02 a.m. PST

I've just started painting a detachment of the 41st which includes a drummer. I was puzzling over the drummers uniform as the 41st had red facings.

I've seen online a plate depicting a white tunic with the later grey trousers. Would drummers therefore have worn an all white uniform at the start of the war ?

Thank you for any light you can shed.

Camcleod05 Mar 2017 1:01 p.m. PST

Yes, drummers in white.

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