"Explain likely outcome of a Nazi v Soviet tank battle?" Topic

Both aircraft and artillery were far less effective vs targets inside bua.

Möbius, if you are willing to do so I would certainly be interested in your result.
Sure, it would be interesting. (When I get back from vacation next week.)
I would like to know the scale on that map of yours as I have to build it to run the tests. The bridges are a bottle-neck and they probably will be blocked in sort order by wrecks. So what units will the Soviets have on the north bank?

BTW, the best pill boxes are your two Tiger IIs. If they were placed to cover each bridge they would cause a cluster**** there.

AGAIN: Why do you ask? Are you designing a scenario, or what?

donlowry, as mentioned, I am interested to know how the respective machines compare against their opposite numbers? Are numbers likely to compensate for lack of quality? Do the Soviet machines lack quality?

The scenario already exists as a programmed game with the Soviets the programmed side but with no explanation as to the rules set up.

I want to know more of the likely outcomes of the tank aspects to the conflict.

The soviet tanks aren't great when compared to heavier german ones like the panther and tiger. The 76 armed ones had a pretty poor rate of fire due to a cramped turret. Egonomics were very poor on t34/76 and not good on the t34/85. The gun on the latter might sound like it's nearly an 88 but it was more like a us 76 in armour penetration terms.
In some rule sets you could put 11 t34/85 up against a tiger or panther in a meeting engagement and they'd still lose if they were funnelled.

In this scenario, How wide are these bridges?
By "2 abreast" you mean they're less than 3 tanks width wide?
If the germans knock out the front couple of tanks crossing each bridge then the soviet armour is pretty much stuck. ( even if a bridge is 6 tanks wide it's still a huge problem. )
Only the front ones can engage and they'll be hit before they fire back.

One panther (or tiger ) ought to be capable of knocking out 2 t34 before they know what's happening.

The slightest camouflage on such a vehicle parked up next to a building is likely to make it very difficult to see from the air. Impossible to see from a moving tank before it fires. Jerry tanks or guns can presumably measure the range and bore sight as they set up. Almost a guarantee of first shot hit.
Similarly, a couple of 20mm cannon would see off any infantry trying to cross.

Jerry can afford several tanks and 88s covering each bridge, and spread them out. Just to add to the soviet pain, they can put pz 4 covering the side of the bridges with orders to shoot and fall back.

Should the sovs get across then Jerry forces in the roads to the side can hit them as they try and spread out.

This is a strange mix of stuff you've given Jerry.
You could give them WAY less and still see the sovs stuck at the bridges using many rule sets.
I suppose it also depends on style of play. We would map deploy jerry forces and they'd only be placed on table as sighted/firing.

122mm thick mortar smoke ought to block sighting on the bridges.

A mass Soviet attack like this has been played many times though not in a city. It will be interesting in seeing what are the key factors.

I don't see any 122 mortars on that list.

I thought the 152 were he only.
Maybe su-76 carried smoke.

I can use 152mm smoke.
As luck would have it I already have a 3D model of that looks remarkably like London's Kingstone bridge.

In a tank battle it looks like the Soviets would prevail. But they would not be able to cross the bridges in any numbers to matter. I tried the battle twice with only 30 T-34/85 and they knocked out almost all the German tanks. But the bridges were blocked by wrecks so the game is a draw at that point. The PZIV were knocked out early, The Panthers lasted a few minutes but were knocked out too. Even a Tiger II was knocked out in each battle. Thus one bridge was left uncovered. A hit in the cupola took out the TC of a Tiger II and the crew bailed in one.

Maybe if I added infantry to the mix the Russian infantry could rush the tank blocked bridges. Even if the German infantry could cover the bridges with machine gun fire their positions could be knocked out by surviving T-34s on the far bank.

Möbius, that's very interesting, and many thanks for your continued interest and input.

Two questions, what if the bridge was wider than two tanks widths, say double to four, and wrecked tanks posed very little obstruction.

Second, what if the attack along the riverside was more heavily delivered?

Is either a game winner?

What do you mean attack alongside the river?
If there's no river and no choke point then the sovs can bring their force to bear far better.
Jerry still has a lot of Atg though.
I would have expected the tiger2 to be a bigger problem.

I'm redoing the map to make to make it smaller at 500m x 500m. It was 1 km x 1 km but too big to be covered by a dozen tanks.
I only used 30 tanks to attack over the bridges to see how that would go. I was going to put 10 more to come in later along the river but they would of just come and shot the immobilized German tanks from the side. Now if there was infantry it would of been a long drawn out fight trying to dislodge them from buildings.

I would have expected the tiger2 to be a bigger problem.
I would of also, but I didn't have them loopholed but pointed down the bridge roads so almost all the T-34s could fire at them. They were each hit 40-50 times before being taken out.

Maybe I'll make some tank pits and have them hull down.

Do you think all the sovs tanks should be able to get los to shoot?
I would think if the front ones burn then very few to none would see past.
Even before then, I wouldn't think many could see past.

Andy,

What do you mean attack alongside the river?

In the scenario I am describing, there are three lines of attack – two bridge crossings and one alongside the river bank to the left side of the bridges.

This attack is funnelled as well between the river and a steep sided hill.

Your comments are of great interest to me. Thanks.

Andy;

I think he means Russian tanks engaging the Germans from the riverbanks so as not to risk clogging the bridge with wrecks. Perhaps destroy, or at least keep busy, enough German tanks so infantry can rush across for a bridgehead and then bring armor across. Just a thought.

I thought maybe that Marc, but then I re-read the description and there's some stuff about a hill. I didn't follow that originally and just forgot about it.

An opposed river crossing is a big problem for the attacker. A huge problem if they have limited smoke ( IIRC the 152s had no smoke shell ) and limited artillery.
Soviets rarely used called artillery. They pre-programmed. Any nationality struggled to bring arty to bear in BUA because limited los meant they couldn't see to call corrections.

If the soviets are already across the river then attacking across it seems a bit pointless.
They'd do way better driving round any hill and only demonstrating at the bridges.

There's a free version of winspww2 here:
link
Forums and downloads:
link

You can use the scenario editor to build a scenario to your taste.
I suggest you start with something rather less huge than the full forces.
There's already a learning scenario which has one tiger 1 against a bunch of T34 which have forest limiting their flanks.
You will win as the Tiger and it'll give you a flavour of what's likely to happen if you just used your armour listed.

What will happen with attacking tanks:
Once destroyed, wrecks block los but you can move past them.
Moving tanks are at a significant disadvantage on shooting compared to static tanks.
The tanks the sovs have are less accurate and have a lower rate of fire than the German tanks.

The likely outcome of a static panther or tiger covering a road / bridge against multiple advancing T34s:

Sov turn:
Soviets move up / on, German tanks are not visible initially and cannot be targeted.
German player is probably advised to set op fire to a low range.

German turn.
Tiger fires first and will likely total the lead 2 sov tanks.
Soviet turn.
They have to move past the burning wrecks one at a time.
The Tiger will op fire and that's probably the end of 3 or 4 more.
Some of the Sov tanks will get past but have a lower number of shots and a low hit chance as they've moved.
They might not even spot the Tiger, in which case none can fire.
German turn.
The German player can choose non lead tanks first but should choose tanks close together for higher hit probability as he changes targets.
Depending on crew quality that'll be 3 or 4 more t/34 in flames.
Then the Soviet player has the same problem.

Let's say the German supports that Tiger with a pak40 or pz4 and that is also at substantial range. Spotting rules are the same. The 75mm on these isn't always going to be a one shot kill on the t34. Hitting is still high probability though and will suppress the t34 in question so it can't fire back until rallied.

Bear in mind that a real world assault should fail if it hits 30% casualties.
Soviet t34 should be in tank companies of 11 tanks each. 3 or 4 lost tanks in rapid succession and the company should withdraw.

If you add in the 152s then he produces some smoke which will limit vision and the sov player could use that on one road.

Those pillboxes alone could potentially cause severe problems for crossing the bridges.
What are those "watch towers". If they're concrete AA towers like in Berlin then they're substantial forts. They proved immune to direct fire from even the heaviest guns the Sovs tried on them.

Soviets rarely used called artillery. They pre-programmed. Any nationality struggled to bring arty to bear in BUA because limited los meant they couldn't see to call corrections.

No. Early in the war they didn't, but at Ponyri Kursk battle they did, so I suspect they did later. Though at Kursk they had pre-registered artillery, land lines and OP posts all in place.

It's kind of odd to see 152mm batteries but no 122mm mortars or other mortars.

If this is at a particular point in Hungary tell me the coordinates. In Panzer Command one can make a map in its mapmaker from Google Earth in 500, 1000, 1500, 2000 meter squares. I made my map from your posted map though. You can do that too.

Oh, the horror! I've obtained the information available to discover it does not refer to Hungary, 1945 but the Kurland peninsula 1944. I regret that mistake.

It seems it is a battle for the town of Dobele, Latvia.

The brief I have is as follows, I don't know how accurate it is to real events, if at all;

The Kurland Pocket, Latvia, 1944

Battle Order 49-44
Date: October, 1944

Our troops surrounded on the Kurland peninsula are engaged in heavy fighting with Russian troops … There are four important installations in this town, which we cannot afford to lose: the river port, the railway station, the factory and the command headquarters. Your mission is to hold at least one of them. Do not allow the opposition to capture the town.

First battles for Courland started in October 15 as the Soviets were attacking to Sloka and Dobele. The Latvian 19th Division was set to defend the positions. On October 11 19th Divison along with German 6 Corpus retreated to Džūkste. Here all main division parts gathered. On October 12 the division received orders to take over defense positions at Lestene command point. On 15 October Soviets were attacking this position with tanks and artillery fire.

I made a Dobele scenario using the tanks and AT guns given. In this map the river divides the map in two, with Germans set up on the west bank and Russians entering on the east edge. There were still two bridges plus a ford through a marsh along the south edge. (see Google Earth)
The Russians had four company's of 10 T-34/85s and two company's of T-34 model 43.

The map has plenty of houses and buildings with trees along the river bank.
This broke up the Russian tank rush so they had to travel down streets in small groups. Plus each company entered the map at 3 minute intervals.

I played the scenario 4 times and each time it was an overwhelming victory for the Germans. There 8 Pak 40s and 6 PzKwf IVH were setup in trenches closest to the river. They were almost always totally lost. However, they had the most kills. The Panthers and Tiger was set up hulldown in dug outs about 100-200 meters behind the river line. An average only one was lost per game. Another 100m behind this line were the Tiger 2s. They were also hulldown in fortifications and suffered fewest hits and had almost no kills.

This was in contrast to the first tests I ran where 30 Soviet T-34/85 line up hub to hub and were able to salvo fire at the 11 German tanks in the open.

Mobius, to start with, thank you for your continuing involvement with this post and gaming the scenarios. I hope you have found them as interesting as I have reading about your findings.

I found the "overwhelming victory for the Germans" result each time surprising and very interesting. Soviet number of tanks did not tend to tell against hull down Panthers and Tigers when the field of attack was restricted.

My interest was in the likely result of such a tank battle and you, and others, have greatly helped me. In the game that I had in mind the effect of the Soviet heavy guns and the Soviet attack aircraft eventually whittled down the AA, SPGs, and German heavy artillery to such an extend that Soviet tank numbers were eventually able to triumph. The effective defence of the bridges being the greatest loss.

Thanks for the link to winspww2, Andrew ONeill, a very interesting relevation for me, and also to all who have contributed to my understanding.

Cheers

Captain, do you have the units involved. Since I made the map I'm going to make a scenario for our game out of it.

First off, this is a game, not a simulation, as most of the Germans would be of very low morale the units and equipment lacking
It is all fine to fantazise about the paper strenghts, but reality was Hitlers nemesis.
Second off, most games, to include such as SimCity, dont address the political impacts on the tactics and strategy, so the diverting of resources, the knferior troops and munitions are never addressed.
And for playbalance, of course the Red Army must never have its numerical superiority

this is a game, not a simulation, as most of the Germans would be of very low morale the units and equipment lacking. ? If it is just a game then why not have normal morale and not try to simulate low morale?

It is all fine to fantazise about the paper strenghts, but reality was Hitlers nemesis. The strengths are a count of tanks, not units. So 2 Tigers II cannot be anything but 2 Tiger IIs. etc.

Not certain, yet, but …

L Army Corps
218th Infantry Division
19th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (2nd Latvian)
126th Infantry Division
15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian)
Kampfgruppe Streckenbach
502nd Heavy Panzer Battalion

Soviet 2nd Guards Army

If you ask nicely, maybe someone in the forums would help you put a winspww2 map together for a scenario.
That'd be the time consuming part. It's pretty fiddly laying out rows of buildings.

The sovs arty and planes aren't enough. It's easier to direct arty in that game than reality, but one battery of 152 isn't enough.

I recommend the pre built campaigns.

You could spend a LOT of time playing a long campaign with max number of battles.

Thanks Captain,

The map is 1500m x 1500m of the river crossing at Dobele, Latvia. It is fall so no green fields.
Top map is from Google Earth. There is also a street view available. The river doesn't seem that wide.