"AWI French" Topic

Hello. I am just about to start the French leg of my AWI collection and am hoping for a bit of guidance ! Am I right in thinking that the flank companies usually served with their parent units, only being formed into elite units for special missions ? Finally, standards, I think I read they only carried a plain ( white cross ? ) flag, however GMB etc make sets of two one of which is a patterned regimental flag. Any opinions would be great !

Dave.

Regiments carried two standards. The drapeau du Roi, and the drapeau d'Ordonnance. (Let's see if that survives both my bad French and Autocorrect. )
"Ordinary" regiments (and what regiment considers itself ordinary?) would carry a plain white flag with a white cross. The second flag would usually have a wide white cross, with the quadrants being in regimental patterns.
However, with other regiments like Royal Deux Ponts, both flags would have very different colorful designs.
The only rule is that the designs are regiment specific.

In the Savannah campaign, many of the battalions are composed of drafts of other regiments. ("Send us your best men!" Right. ) I am clueless here what flag these composite battalion would use.
Also at Savannah was the Irish regiment Dillon, whose flag is again of a different pattern. Irish regiments in French service had consistent flag patterns but were different from standard French patterns.
And then there were the overseas colonial regiments. I don't think Perry makes them yet, nor what flags they carried, if any.

I highly recommend Rene Chartrand's Osprey book on French army in the AWI.

If doing French, you may want maximum mileage. So think also perhaps fighting the Brits in the Indies and India during the AWI. Colourful and exotic extra scenarios for your French!

As Winston says, Rene Chartrand's book is your ideal starting point. This web page gives the flags of the Expedition Particuliere (Rochambeau's corps).

link

Regarding flank companies, the troops sent to Savannah were largely "picked men" type units (mostly small battalions composed of the grenadier, chasseur and two fusilier companies). However, in general the French modus operandi at this time was to keep the flank companies at regimental HQ, whilst parading them on the right of the 1st Bn (grenadiers) and left of the 2nd Bn (chassuers). In this way, they could then be used as required, including "brigading" with the flank companies of the other regiment in that brigade (as happened for the assault on Redoubt 9 at Yorktown).

I too am about to embark on painting an entire AWI collection and the French will of course be a part of it; I will use HaT industrie 7YW, Russian conical hat for Hessians, and artillery from my Nappy collection. One base will be one battalion just as for Nappy. It's basically Nappy era stuff in America. All plastics of course.

Thank you all, SM, I am going to have five bases of 6 figures per unit, shall I actually bother with any Grenadiers/Chasseurs or just stick with 30 fusiliers and maybe paint up one unit of separate Gren/Chass to be used as and when ?

If it helps, the following is from the various scenario books published by Caliver (for use with the "British Grenadier!" rules, although of course other rules are available). It shows the pick and mix nature of how the French were used.

Siege of Savannah:
- Grenadiers: 3 units of 8 figures each, which can be combined together (drawn from the Dillon and Armagnac regiments);
- Chasseurs: 3 units of 6, 8, and 10 figures (which can be combined);
- Regt. Dillon: 12 figures;
- Regt. Armagnac: 12 figures;
- 2 battalions of detachments of 16 and 18 figures (drawn from the Cambresis, Champagne, Agenois, Gatinais and Auxerrois regiments).

Attack on the Yorktown redoubts:
- Grenadiers: 2 units of 18 figures each (from the Royal Deux Ponts and Soissonais regiments);
- Chasseurs: 18 figures (from the Soissonais and Gatinais regiments).

La Vigie:
- Grenadiers: 1 unit of 18 figures (drawn from the Armagnac, Auxerrois, and Viennois regiments);
- Chasseurs: 3 units of 6 figures each, which can be combined (drawn from the Armagnac, Auxerrois, Gatinais, and Viennois regiments);
- Regt. Armagnac: 2 battalions of 18 figures each;
- Regt. Auxerrois: 2 battalions of 18 figures each.

So the extent to which you try to model the historical formations is really up to you; you can go crazy or just paint up a couple of regiments and use those for everything. Personally, however, I think part of the attraction of a French AWI force is having a different base in a different uniform – if make them very colourful troops. Also, the orbats above show that actually it's the grenadiers and chasseurs who appear more often in the scenarios, and so are probably more useful to paint up in the first instance.

If you'll excuse the self-promotion, there is other potentially helpful information on modelling AWI French on my blog here: link

Giles

Great stuff Giles, thank you, also just noticed on the Perry site there is only one Standard Bearer per pack !

Hi Dave – I substantially amended my post during your acknowledgement! I just use 1 flag per battalion, to be honest. So the Armagnac and Auxerrois regiments will have both their standards but the Dillon and Viennois will only display 1 (I choose the most colourful – players' licence!).

" 'Ordinary' regiments (and what regiment considers itself ordinary?) would carry a plain white flag with a white cross. The second flag would usually have a wide white cross, with the quadrants being in regimental patterns.
However, with other regiments like Royal Deux Ponts, both flags would have very different colorful designs."

Your "ordinary" regiments are French regiments – as opposed to foreign regiments in French service, such as Royal Deux-Ponts…The white flag is the drapeau colonel (equivalent of the King's colour), the other one is the drapeau d'ordonnance (equivalent of the regimental or second colour).

Thanks for all that chaps,to be honest I would like to equip my units with the two flags, perhaps if I speak nicely to the Perry's they might let me buy some seperate standards !!

Don't have my docs, but I sort of remember at Savannah and elsewhere the troops under naval command ("garnison des vaisseaux") also had a hogepodge of islands units, lovals and volunters with funny uniforms. Old fashioned tricorns as far away from the recent reforms.
Converged units would not have flags ( gren, chasseurs, " caribean mix").

You only need one standard bearer per unit. 1st battalion gets the Royal Colour, 2nd battalion gets the drapeau d'Ordonnance.

I keep getting close to starting my own AWI French collection- so tempting. Problem is, I can't find any suitable Perry compatible minis to represent the interesting foreign units (like the West Indian regts, or Cipayes units for India). So I keep chickening out at the last moment.

When I do finally succumb, I will probably go for Regts based in 6s like you, 2x7 base battalions plus 3 bases of chasseurs and 2 bases of grenadiers. Quite an investment, but my British and American forces are 6 to a base to represent roughly 50men, so the French units need to be big (going to be be challenging to paint & collect).

I wish you luck!

ahh got it !I have been thinking along the two standard British system, thank you all !

Except all the regiments that came over in the AWI brought just one battalion.
Same as the Hessians.

@winston – I thought the regiments that went over with Rochambeau took both? Certainly the regts in the earlier expedition to the Windies were one battalion, from which the Savannah expedition was drawn; but the OBs I thought I had seen for Yorktown show 1000-1200 men per regt – which would seem to indicate 2 battalions?

Just looked at the Novak lists, Brendan Morrissey's Yorktown book, and Chartrand. All say 2 battalions in the Rochambeau regts.

Fewer men than I thought 900-1000 mostly.

Am I missing something?

Just as an aside what figures are you using. I did my French back in the late 80s using Old Glory.

Re. the OB for La Vigie, as far as I can see René Chartrand has the French force at St Lucia composed of elements from Regts. Armagnac, Martinique, and Guadaloupe, as opposed to Caliver's
Armagnac, Auxerrois, Gatinais, and Viennois regiments.

Is there a definitive`source for that episode?

Brendan and Rene said that?
They know more than I do, so I take it back.

But I bought some grenadiers with bearskin already from Front Rank for my RDP, and they're already painted. I went by Molo (?) and they look cool.
I'm sticking with them.
The rest are from the Old Glory bag, grenadiers with tricorne. 36 is a nice HUGE regiment, hainna?

Honestly, I can't be bothered with the French. Not enough action for me.

John, all my untis are 36 figures. A nice round number.

Winston- not so fast. It was 'only' René Chartrand. (I haven't come across any ref. from Brendan) and Caliver are a fairly reliable publisher, so this might not be a done deal. Admittedly, one would hope to rely on Chartrand in this instance.

Crazycoote
900-1000 might be without the combined flank companies. See if numbers for these bns are elsewhere in the list.
Can also easily have fast 10% attrition esp. After sea crossing.

About the colonial troops from the islands:
From. link
"La guerre d'Indépendance américaine fut l'occasion de mettre en place les plans prévus depuis 1765 et l'armée de terre consentit à un effort important. L'État militaire pour la France  [78][78] SHAT, Xi, 1. Et BN, cabinet des manuscrits, NAF, 9430,… de 1778 rapporte ainsi qu'on trouvait le régiment d'Armagnac à la Guadeloupe et les régiments d'Auxerrois et de Viennois à la Martinique. Le régiment d'Agenois était à Saint-Domingue, avec le régiment de Gâtinois et celui de Cambrésis. Le corps expéditionnaire réuni par le comte d'Estaing pour l'expédition de Savannah put ainsi se renforcer grâce aux garnisons présentes aux Antilles  [79][79] Voir AN, Marine, B4, 16, f°247 et B4, 142, f°15.. L'appareillage eut lieu au Cap-Français le 16 août avec 3 750 hommes de troupes réglées ; 33 % avaient été prélevés sur la garnison de la Martinique et 37 % sur celle de Saint-Domingue. Les régiments coloniaux n'avaient donné que 15 % de l'effectif, les régiments de terre 64 %. Les 21 % restant provenaient de corps recrutés et soldés pour la durée de la guerre parmi les populations libres des colonies, les grenadiers et les chasseurs de Saint-Domingue ou de la Martinique."
Those different old fashioned troops you can use in scenarios on the islands and Savannah and what else you can imagine.
Pretty sure they are displayed in Osprey colonial troops.

Brendan Morrissey's Osprey campaign book, page 35 has the OBs for the French, and clearly says 2 bns for each of the regts present.

Chartrand MAA book, which everybody seems to have a high regard for, shows the French Metropolitan Infantry deployments overseas on page 19.

Even the regts deployed in the second phase to the West Indies seem to have taken 2 bns. Gatinois was originally sent with 1 ban to Martinique, but seems to have been joined by its second ban in late '77. So all the Infantry regts at Yorktown appear to have had both bns.

Not claiming that is definitive, but it is good enough for me.

Do we have any accessible accounts of the attack at La VIgie in December 1778 from the French point of view?

Many French regiments fought during the siege of Gilbralter. You also had a large force assigned during planning for an invasion of England.

42flanker

St. Lucia / Vigie

Couldn't find a lot so far, just a few snippets based on accounts by Louis-Antoine de Bougainville who at the time was captain of the ship-of-the-line Le Guerrier, 74 guns (it seems he was really cheesed with d'Estaing and sugar-coats nothing…). See pp.177-180, and esp. pp.178f.:

link

The Rochambeau regiments each brought two battalions, but they were kept to 500 men per battalion because of the amount of shipping available; similarly, the fusilier companies of Lauzun's Legion were left behind.

St Simon's regiments were smaller (around 900 men each in two battalions) due to the natural attrition of Caribbean service and the need to leave garrisons behind.

Thanks, Scharnachtal. Brief but telling. Was Bougainville a bit of a 'croaker' or merely an exasperated professional?

You really don't know who Bougainville was?

link

link

Not my area of interest. In relation to the South Seas, something; les Îles Malouines; Bougainvillea; as a subordinate officer in the West Indies task force, less.

As a side observation, I had no idea that originally he originally was a soldier, and had been present as an aide de camp at Fort William, Ticonderoga and Quebec.

Pleased to have been put in the way of a little more knowledge here.

Lighten our darkness, O Lord.

British Grenadier has a La Vigie scenario.

Haven't played it yet. Not enough French painted!

Rene Chartrand's work is scholarly and reliable and he has written the best of the Ospreys on both the War of the Revolution and the Napoleonic period.

"Rene Chartrand's work is scholarly and reliable."

but not his F&I stuff.

I would have greatly preferred the acknowledged expert on Loyalists – Todd Braisted – instead of Rene for the Loyalist book. I suspect Osprey gets a relationship with some authors and asks them to continue, regardless of their level of expertise.

Rene's books on the F&I are a mixture of good and really suspect.