"Warlord's Juba I - a little exotic?" Topic

Warlord has released a Juba I of Numidia figure. It looks rather sub-Saharan. Any thoughts?

Warlord's version:
link
link

Coin of Juba I:

Bust of Juba I:

Warlord's version is not my idea of Jubal either.

Funnily enough I just converted a model to depict Juba I. I went with a Greek/Roman style cuirass, general's belt ribbon thingy, an oval shield with metal boss and adapted the minis' head to look like the statue above. I stuck him on a Roman cavalry horse with four-pointed saddle. He's off with a painter mate to be painted

I don't imagine that Juba would ride a horse without a bridle, since his Spanish bodyguard cavalry had bridles. I like the Warlord model, but I'll use him as a Numidian chief, rather than as a presumably quite Romanised King.

I immediately thought Nubian chief myself. I wish they had stuck with a more historical depiction. I can understand if this were for a fantasy game or something along those lines, but the audience for this miniature albeit limited is going to know that Juba would have looked a bit different!

The fingers on the models left hand look about 10" long to accommodate the 2 javelins.

You know what they say, big fingers, big javelin.

Kushite chieftain from the Conan stories maybe. Juba would be more Greek or Roman attired I would think.

Nope. Looks more like an early native American.

Is that figure Gerard Butler?

Agree. Juba should be far more Hellenised/Romanised.

Arguably the animal skin isn't so outlandish, after Strabo:

"Although the most of the country inhabited by the Maurusians is so fertile, yet even to this time most of the people persist in living a nomadic life. But nevertheless they beautify their appearance by braiding their hair, growing beards, wearing golden ornaments, and also by cleaning their teeth and paring their nails. And only rarely can you see them touch one another in walking, for fear that the adornment of their hair may not remain intact. Their horsemen any mostly with a javelin, using bridles made of rush, and riding bareback; but they also carry daggers. The foot-soldiers hold before them as shields the skins of elephants, and clothe themselves with the skins of lions, leopards, and bears, and sleep in them. I might almost say that these people, and the Masaesylians, who live next after them, and the Libyans in general, dress alike and are similar in all other respects, using horses that are small but swift, and so ready to obey that they are governed with a small rod." link

But the combination as a whole seems off.

Agree that a more Romanised look may be appropriate, especially given the coins and the tale that Caesar tugged his beard once.

This would certainly go well with Conan.

Look forward to seeing your conversion when it's done, Simon.

@olicana – surely Gerard Butler's tending the fields of Thermopylae not the happy hunting grounds of Numidia?

I don't think Scots care where they hang out. Just so long as they can wear a skirt and get paid well.

Hahahahaha

What? Sorry, I thought you said Jubal !

That picture is a little early. Pun intended.

Could the figure work for Massinissa or Syphax?

Massinissa:

link

Syphax:

Maybe swap out the shield and make him a Zulu

Juba would be better depicted in a cloak of royal purple:

"For Scipio had been in the habit of wearing a purple cloak (sagulo purpureo) before the king arrived; and Juba — so it is said — took the matter up with him, saying that Scipio ought not to wear the same dress as he himself wore. And so it came about that Scipio changed to white dress (ad album sese vestitum transferret) in deference to Juba — that by‑word of arrogance and indolence." (De bello Africo, 57)

Bertrandy (see link ) has argued that the Simitthus rider –

– represents Juba.

Thanks, Duncan. That's much more reasonable.

Looks like the Numidian Prince from Crusader may be a closer match:

By the way, Warlord used to make their Numidian cavalry quite Nubian:

They appear to have remodelled and repainted them now:

Ether Drake, if you had taken the time to look at the supporting documentation for the bust of Massinissa you would have noticed that the estimated date for its creation was the 2nd century AD. That puts it about 300 to 400 years from the historical events. We know that Roman/Greek artists rendered historical persons in their own cultural frame (much like Shakespeare's Julius Caesar had Romans' wearing 17th century dress.)

Juba was 150 years later than Massinissa and Syphax (the coin example above is suspect in my opinion) and the region had been thoroughly Hellenized in that time so we cannot logically infer one to the other.

@Marcus Brutus, point taken on the dating of the bust, though I think you mean Juba rather than Massinissa. The contemporary coinage of the Numidian kings from at least Massinissa onwards depict a comparable 'look'. Amongst, numerous coin sites, see: link

The depiction of Numidians on the Canosa vases is also broadly similar. They are garbed in an edged tunic.

Which all tends to make the Warlord depiction rather outlandish compared to the other examples.

I was looking at your link for Masinissa ether. My broader point is that Greek/Roman sensibility naturally interpreted heroic individuals from other cultures by projecting Hellenized attributes on to them including their depiction. It is not surprising to me that a bust of Masinissa made in 175 AD looks surprisingly Roman. So I think we need to tread with caution in this area.

My understanding is that North Africa after the 2nd Punic War and especially after the fall of Carthage in 146 BC went through a rapid Hellenization. Micipsa's social environment circa 135 BC would have been radically different from that of his father's youth in 220 BC. I think we see a good equivalent of the size of the cultural shift by observing the changes in North American Indians between 1850 and 1935.

Nice detail about the colour of the cloak, Duncan- thanks!

I can't make out much of the image; does he appear to be in armour? Is that a feather on the horse's neck?

"My broader point is that Greek/Roman sensibility naturally interpreted heroic individuals from other cultures by projecting Hellenized attributes on to them including their depiction."

As far as I can see they didn't; look at the Dying Gaul for Helenism or pretty much any Roman image of their opponents, 'othering' was a key component of Greco-Roman ideology.

I don't think the native American comparison can take us anywhere useful. The Numidians were not disparate bands of stone age hunter gatherers faced by huge numbers of incomers with a highly superior technology.

Agreed that the bust of Massinissa made c. 175 AD may be of less evidential worth in figuring out what Juba I may have looked like (or Massinissa for that matter).

I consider the Numidian culture of the late 3rd century BC to be a mix of their indigenous culture, with Carthaginian and Helleni(sti)c influences (insofar as the Carthaginians were Hellenised themselves). The Barcids styled themselves in Hellenic fashion on their coins, perhaps they did so in life. I don't think we'll know for sure.

But the maintenance of a beard, despite the Hellenistic fashion for shaving, suggests a fairly persistent aspect of Numidian fashion that is absent in the Juba miniature.

I can't make out much of the image; does he appear to be in armour? Is that a feather on the horse's neck?

No armour, just a long-sleeved tunic (with diadem, cloak and shoes). Bertrandy thinks that's a braided mane, not a feather.

Thanks Duncan. I thought it looked big for a feather.