"Panzers types and companies in early PD." Topic

Hi there!

I apologize if the issue has already been discussed here by the past…

Till mid 43 the Panzer Divisionen equiped with german made tanks (I will not discuss over the many exceptions)rode at least three different types of tanks: Pz II, III and IV.

How were those different models combined inside a same battalion?
Were there specific companies according to the type of Panzer used, or different types of panzers(by platoon I presume) could have been present into the same company?

Also, was there some kind of a rule giving the Pz III to the two first platoons/companies and the IV to the two last ones for exemple?

Last, the light Pz II was used as late as mid 43 in the PDs, assuming its role was limited to recce purposes by this time of the war. Were those last Pz IIs grouped into a dedicated company, and which one, or given in small number to each?

Thanks for sharing.

Panzer companies could have a mix of PzIII platoons and PzIV platoons. I cannot imagine platoons being of mixed types. I've never heard of such.

PzIIs were put together in recce platoons usually of 3 or 4 tanks and assigned at one recce platoon per battalion. My list for 11th Pz in July 1943 list only seven PzIIs in teh division: 3 as recce for the 3/15 Panzer, and 4 as recce for 2/15.

The various early war orgs are a bit of a morass, not helped by the fact the relevant KStN (equivalent to US T/O&E) aren't available. Several authors have tried to reverse engineer the info and an online example is here;

PDF link

Panzer types were mixed down to Platoon level, and there were variations of the above link.

The PzII was largely relegated to a light recce vehicle with the 1941 organisation. In theory each Panzer Company had five PzIIs in its Coy HQ (plus two command tanks), while the HQs of each Panzer Battalion and Regiment had a Recce Pl with five PzIIs. That was carried over into the Nov41 KStN, which is the earliest date you can assemble all the authorised elements of a Panzer Regt.

Gary

The actual division organizations didn't follow the formal standards, as well.

The practice changed over time, as well. IIRC, in '41, panzer battalions would have 2 or 3 companies of PzIIIs and 1 of PzIVs. At that time, the PzIIs constituted a scout platoon of 5 panzers in each company. By then all the PzIs had been withdrawn. Those PDs that used the Czech-made Pz38t just substituted those for the PzIIIs, and pretty sure they didn't mix PzIIIs with the Pz38t. Unfortunately, the sites where I got this info are no longer up.

Many thanks folks!

So, subsiadiary and practical question:

I am actually retrofitting my old PzII plastic kit by Frog.
Old nice model by the way, but the markings I applied years ago are wrong I am afraid.

Considering the tactical numbers painted onto the panzers, what "platoon" number should I assign to a panzer II which would be part of a company's recce platoon?
"1"? "0"?

Thanks for your help.

As above, the 'standard' orgs foor early war were all over the place, and some of them did indeed include mixed platoons of different tank types, as well as mixed companies of different types.

Frankly, your best bet is to look at the actual organisations in e.g. Niehorster or Jentz.

Considering the tactical numbers painted onto the panzers, what "platoon" number should I assign to a panzer II which would be part of a company's recce platoon?
"1"? "0"?

I can only extrapolate (guess), but I would think "0". Probably X03-X07 (1 and 2 being the command tanks, X being the company number; and companies were numbered thru the entire regiment, not just the battalion).

By '43, definitely by '44, the scout platoons in companies had disappeared; replaced by a scout platoon in each battalion, and one at regimental level; no longer PzIIs but whatever tank the battalion was equipped with, PzIII, PzIV or PzV.

Tirailleur corse, as you appear to be in France, if you have a few extra euros I would recommend these books:

Panzer Divisions: The Blitzkrieg Years 1939-40
link

Panzer Divisions: The Eastern Front 1941-43
link

Panzer Divisions 1944-45
link

If you want to do a fairly typical organisation it would be Panzer battalion of 2 light and 1 heavy companies. Light company has an HQ of 2 Pz III, 1st platoon of 5 Pz II and 3 platoons of 5 Pz III. Heavy company was the same except the Pz III's were replaced with Pz IV's. Early on when numbers available were small there might be only 3 or 4 Pz III/IV's per platoon.

Pricey, but worth every penny, is Panzer Truppen Volumes 1 and 2 by Thomas Jentz.

link

link

From one of the links posted by Steve Wilcox :

cheers

panzer IIs were indeed used for recce, also for FOO. Saw a recent picture of one being used as an ambulance/tank for the division surgeon. There seems to have been substantial mixing of variants and marks. 2 panzer III with 2 panzer IV in a platoon. 2 companies of panzer III 2 companies of Panzer IV. I always found this one interesting. First Heavy tank company organization here a mix of tigers and panzer III link

Question for you lot:

Conventional wisdom is that Panzer II were only used for recce, but when you look at how large a portion of the German tank strength was Panzer I and II, especially in France and Poland, that doesn't seem to compute.

So did the Panzer II get folded into regular battalions as well?

The comments above apply mainly to mid 1941 onwards.

In the 1939 – 40 PDs, Pz IIs were used as gun tanks in the medium tank companies, sometimes in mixed patoons with Pz Is (as Pz IIIs were as rare is the rocking horse sh*t).

I am not going to type out all the different orgs from Jentz and Niehorster, but e.g. in May 1940 the light companies in 3rd Panzer Div had an HQ platoon of 2 x Pz II, 1 x Pz 1 and 1 x Bef-Pz 1, three light platoons of 4 x Pz 1 and 1 Pz II, and a light platoon of 5 x Pz II.

So the overall strength of the combat platoons was 12 x Pz I and 10 x Pz II, with each Pz 1 platoon being led by a single Pz II.

Ooops sorry, my mistake. That was the light company sent from 3rd Panzer to jon 40th Pz Abt for the invasion of Denmark.

The 3rd Panzer Light Cos in France had an HQ (Pz I and II), a single platoon of five Pz III and three mixed platoons of 3 x Pz II and 2 x Pz I.

Yep, in '40 there just weren't enough PzIIIs or even Czech types to fill the companies, so lots of PzIs and IIs got used; and the PzIIIs only had 37mm guns then.

Leper Messiah: interesting charts! especially the ones showing mixed platoons of PzIIIs and IVs, never saw them mixed like that before.

Makes sense, thanks for the info Martin.

Many thanks folks!

I did not imagine to gather that lmuch informations!

Thanks for your help.

There are so many variations of turret numbers – most of them at the whim of the regimental Oberst – that it's not funny.

But officially at least, 1st Kompanie will have 101 and 102, followed by the leichte zug with 111, 112, 113, 114, 115.

Then come your panzer III's or 38(T)'s numbered 121 thru 125 and 131 thru 135. Rinse and repeat for second Kompanie replacing the first digit of the turret number with a 2.

3rd kompanie has panzer IV's numbered 301 and 302 at HQ, 311 thru 315 are panzer II's and 321-5, 331-5 are panzer IV's in the second and third platoons respectively. That's the 1st Battalion.

2nd Battalion has Kompanies 4, 5, and 6 numbered as above E.G. the lead tank in the light platoon of 5th company will be 511

Here's the late war chart for 1st Panzer with turret numbers shown link