"Russian infantry battalion organisation 1805-7" Topic

Did the musketeer battalion (field not depot) have 3 musketeer and 1 grenadier company, or was it all musketeers.

Just interested in the musketeers at present, not the grenadier battalions or regiments. Many thanks.

Marc,

Marc, up until 1810 Russian Musketeer Battalions had 4 companies of Musketeers.
2 Musketeer Btn and 1 Grenadier Btn per Regt.

Hmmm. Ok. Does that complicate matters? The grenadier battalion – was that hived off to make converged grenadier regiments or deployed with the two musketeer battalions in the field?

Thanks

Deployed with the musketeer battalions.

The grenadier regiments had grenadier and fusilier battalions.

There were no mixed battalions and no converged battalions.

But there were mixed regiments, that generally fought as regiments.

From Viskavatov (thanks to Mark Conrad's translation):

12 October 1810 Infantry Regiments organization amended as follows:
1.) Grenadier Regiments (except the Life-Grenadiers) to consist of 3 Fusilier battalions each of 1 Grenadier and 3 Fusilier companies.
2.) Musketeer Regiments to consist of 3 Musketeer battalions each comprising 1 Grenadier and 3 Musketeer companies.
3.) Jäger Regiment battalions to consist of 1 Grenadier and 3 Musketeer companies.
4.) In every Fusilier, Musketeer, and Jäger battalion, the senior, or Grenadier, company was to be made up of grenadiers and marksmen [strelki], with the grenadiers in the 1st platoon [vzvod] and the marksmen in the 2nd platoon.
5.) In battle formation, the 1st, or Grenadier, platoon of the Grenadier company was to deploy on the right flank of its battalion, while the 2nd, or Marksmen [Strelkovyi] platoon, was to be on the left.
6.) When regiments went on campaign, the Fusilier, Musketeer, and Jäger companies of the second battalions, were used to bring the other two battalions upto strength, and the troops remaining were termed Replacement [Zapasnyi] battalions.
7.) The Grenadier companies of second battalions were to go on campaign with the first and third battalions.
8.) When all six regiments of a division were united together, the Grenadier companies of their second battalions were to form for it two Combined Grenadier Battalions [Svodnye Grenaderskie bataliony], each of three companies.
9.) In each Corps [Korpus], the Combined Grenadier Battalions were to form a Combined Grenadier Brigade [Svodnaya Grenaderskaya brigada] and be the Reserve [Rezerv] of this Corps.
10.) In an Army [Armiya], the Combined Grenadier Brigades of its Corps were to form a Combined Grenadier Division [Svodnaya Grenaderskaya diviziya] and be its Reserve.

31 October 1810 – The organisational changes for Grenadier regiments were extended to the Life-Grenadiers, except that all companies were titled Grenadiers.

What actually was a fusilier in the Russian army? Light infantry, junior grenadier, or what?

According to page 8 of Philip Haythornthwaite's Osprey Men at Arms "The Russian Army of the Napoleonic Wars (1): Infantry 1799-1814" – "….. (the musketeers, or ordinary line infantry, were termed 'fusiliers' in grenadier regiments)…."

So there is no real difference between a grenadier and a musketeer regiment in composition?

Thanks for that. So i can organise my troops as two musketeer battalions to one grenadier for my line regiments.

I take it fusileer battalions in the grenadier regiments wore grenadier plumes?

And good to see the 1810 info but I definitely wanted the 1805-7 period. Vastly under represented in wargaming in my mind.

Headgear depends on exactly when. If the grenadiers were in the classic mitre, the fusiliers would have worn a shorter version (like 7YW Prussian fusiliers). I think that would be the case in 1805-7 period.

From an earlier TMP thread on the subject: link

Tried that source but, unless it's me, I didn't find it very 1805-7 centric. Lots for 1812. But thanks

Is there an actual tmp thread link? My searching didn't find it

Oh, and my models have the big busch plume not mitres (avoiding Pavlovski for the moment)

I definitely wanted the 1805-7 period. Vastly under represented in wargaming in my mind.

Likewise for the Austrians of the same era; figures-wise that is. 1798 fine, 1809 fine, but the 1805 uniform was not the 1809 one with just a different hat. It was more like the 1798 one with a different hat. Not even Elite gets this right.

Surprising really because 1805 to 1807 is for me the high water mark of the era.

The best online resource for Russian Infantry, across all Napoleonic time periods, see Jonathan Gingerich's page: link .

This is from my notes collection – culled from assorted sources:

Prior to 1805 Grenadiers wore mitres and Musketeers wore bicornes. In 1805 Grenadiers were ordered to wear shakos with a large plume and Musketeers were ordered to wear shakos without a plume.

Judging by the artistic representations of the period the impression seems to be that the Musketeer Regiments did as they were told and adopted the shako. However, the take up of the new regulation by Grenadier Regiments seems to have been mixed.

For those Grenadier Regiments that retained the mitre, the "grenadiers" would have had the larger grenadier mitre and the "fusiliers" would have had the smaller fusilier mitre. For those Grenadier Regiments that adopted the shako with a large plume, the "grenadiers" would have had the shako with a large plume. The "fusiliers" the same without plume.

19 August 1803 felt shakos replaced hats in musketeer regiments. These early shakos were, apparently, lined with straw.

13 February 1805 shakos replaced grenadier and fusilier caps in grenadier regiments.

13 February 1805 same pattern shakos as for grenadiers above replace 1803 issue felt shakos in musketeer regiments.

Grenadier regiments who had adopted the shako had the following distinctions:

1) Grenadier Battalion (4 Companies): large black plume (red for musicians, white tip with central orange stripe front-to-back for NCOs), brass single 'grenade' badge beneath the 'national' cockade (black with thin band of orange at outer edge). Shako pompon colours: exterior per battalion (1st=White, 2nd=Yellow, 3rd=Red), with 'interior' or centre per regimental 'seniority' within the Inspectorate. The black ammo pouch was adorned with a circular brass badge (embossed with dual-headed eagle), with 4 flaming 'grenades'--one at each corner, with the flame pointing 'inward' towards the circular badge.

2) Fusilier Battalions (4 Companies each): As above, however no plumes, and no grenade badges on shako or ammunition pouch for Fusiliers.

Common to both Grenadiers & Fusiliers: sword-knots were white strap & fringe, with the central 'acorn' (or 'bell') in the Inspectorate colour, with 'rings' above and below the 'bell' coloured as follows: 1st Company = White, 2nd = Red, 3rd = Sky-Blue, and 4th Company = Orange. NCO sword-knots were a mix of black and orange, interwoven, whilst officers were silver, intertwined with three fine orange & black stripes (like their waist sashes). It appears that the Pavlov Grenadiers were the only Regiment 'honoured' to retain the mitre hats after 1805.

hope that helps

Lol…if you'd scroll down, there is plenty of information about pre-1810.

this is the only Russian thread I have bookmarked
TMP link

Zippee for zippee. Great help thanks

And jeff. Sorry if I missed it – phone surfing is never quite as good. I will take another look

And Greystreak – that is a great find – I have printed off a copy for my painting desk. Thank you

You're very welcome. Feel free to return to that site regularly, as Jonathan is very good at continuing to add updates as he reads new Russian works.