"Tactical Boardgame System: ASL or Panzer Grenadier" Topic

Thinking about picking up a tactical WW2 board game. Always liked Squad Leader, but it grew into a beast. Not sure what the new version is like.

What would you recommend?

Looking for a tactical game, preferably one with mutiple modules so I can do NWE 44, Barbarossa, N Africa etc.

I can't speak for PG, but the ASL starter kits, if you can find them are very manageable, at least for an infantry game.

You can get into the system cautiously by getting the starter kits and the full rules book.

the ASL starter kits, if you can find them are very manageable, at least for an infantry game.

what Weasel says, module 1,2,3, Historical module. Very affordable and includes armor.

The latest rage is also Band of Brothers series.

I should add..they are affordable while in print.
The prices explode when they are out of print, which happens somewhat often.

From memory kit 1 is infantry, 2 is guns and 3 is armour. There's also downloadable scenarios for the starter kits specifically.
They each come with 6 scenarios with a good amount of replay.

I love ASL, had the whole system until about 2004 then had to sell to pay some bills. Got about half of what I had put into it.

How about Panzer from GMT?

Isn't Panzer the modern version of the old Panzer Leader/ Panzer Blitz?

Personally I'm not a huge fan of ASL. I prefer the Band of Brothers games- Ghost Panzer is quite good.

ASL but I'm biased having been playing since SL was released (was an SL / ASL Playtester).

You're dealing with two different scales (squad vs platoon).

The starter kits are well thought out and make for an easy intro to the system.

Panzer Grenadier is "lighter" than ASL and at the platoon level. There is a wide variety of games and modules available with most of the games with 50+ scenarios.

I have played and enjoyed both, but Panzer Grenadier is indeed lighter and more playable.

ASL is a lifestyle choice (like Star Fleet Battles)

You might also consider Conflict of Heroes – Awakening the Bear etc.

or Old School Tactical, a newer recent release. ASL but MUCH simpler yet retaining the flavor and feel. I haven't played Panzer Grenadier. I am currently. I'm currently retooling panzerblitz maps from the Imaginitive Strategist website for a minis game.

ASL wrote the book on complex, micro-issue games, so much that they felt compelled to issue the stripped-down starter sets. If you want to dive into that pool, more power to you. You certainly won't be alone. Due to the number of turns in many scenarios, I think that ASL games tend to require the player to move very quickly to secure the objectives. There just never seemed to be much time or space for a lot of maneuver in ASL games. It also seemed like ASL games often turned into fire-pin-close assault-repeat. The ASL look is dated and generic.

PG has a much different feel. You typically have more turns and more space on the board. Where ASL forces you to move quickly, PG strongly encourages you to move more slowly. Using combined arms, especially getting your artillery into play is what usually decides a PG game. The rules are not the investment in time or money as the ASL rules, and the maps and counters are more attractive.

I like the Panzer group of games by James Day (published by GMT). The look is a bit like Panzer Blitz, but the game's roots are in the Yaquinto games. The Panzer games don't have the following (or haters) of ASL or PG, But they are more manageable in terms of time and investment. The rules allow you to add complexity to create the type of game you want.

I tried on multiple occasions to learn ASL, including with the starter kits, and I gave up. I find the turn sequence a needless agony. Way too much work for the limited enjoyment.

I highly recommend the Panzer Grenadier system. A huge number of games available, each with a huge number of scenarios, and with beautiful components. I own literally everything ever produced, and it is the game I play 90% of the time.

The third and fourth edition rules are both great, quite simple but with lots of flavor. It is platoon level (each counter) rather than squad. The rules are quite simple, so you can focus on tactics more than the rules.

The main thing I love about Panzer Grenadier is that it really captures the pace of battles, and casualty rates, perhaps because it is a little more abstract system. Leadership and morale are huge in this game. To me, it really plays the way historical accounts of battles read, there is a great narrative sense of the development of the battle.

I do occasionally play ATS, which is a direct competitor of ASL scale wise, but much simpler yet still detailed. I prefer PG because I find that the lower-level tactical games accelerate the casualty rates way too much. Whole companies get wiped out in minutes. PG does a better job of capturing the pace of battle.

ASL is not attracting a lot of new players due to cost, complexity and rather dull graphics. It does still have a large and avid following but mostly older people – say 50+, who started out with SL. Mostly. There are some younger people too just not as many.

The cost in time and money to play ASL is prohibitive, and all for a game system which is quite dated. Even the most basic units – the squads themselves – bear little resemblance to the TOEs of WW2 infantry units.

If you want to try ASL I would start with the starter kit rules and play on VASL. If you like it then you can invest more deeply. There are people on VASL who will let you watch games and even play teaching games.

Band of Brothers is the best tactical system I have found. So far they have modules (each is a stand-alone game) for 101st Airborne, 7th Panzer Division, and US 36th ID.

Although the box resembles the one for PanzerBlitz Panzer is actually a redo of the Yaquinto series Panzer (east front), 88 (North Africa) and Armor (the west front). It is not the 2nd edition but the third edition if you count the poor second edition by Excalibre Games (Panzer 1941-1945).

The core system is back in print (look for the "second printing" on the cover) and incorporates errata from the first printing. There are 3 follow on modules available with more planned. Highly recommended.

link

I took a liking to Panzer after playing the basic scenario a couple of times (T-34s vs. Pz. IVs using basic rules if I recall correctly). The first game, both sides stood off lobbing rounds at long range, with both sides eventually taking heavy losses. Before the second game, I actually looked at the unit cards, and realized that there was a range zone where the T-34 could fire much more effectively than the Pz. IV. Too far, and they were equal; too close, and the Pz. IV was better; but stay in that intermediate range, and the T-34 could deliver a whooping. Seeing that tactic play out successfully got me hooked.

Is there a WWII or modern squad level game similar to but with simpler rules than Squad Leader? I bought Squad Leader when it was first published but the add on modules made it too complex.

Conflict of Heroes, Panzer and Panzer Grenadier are the 3 I'm looking at…

Conflict of Heroes is another good one and has the advantage of a computer version. Large, easy to read, thick counters beautifully done. Remind me of the type counter you see in many of the better Euro-games.

Most of the scenarios for PG are rather large battles with a lot of units on the board and agonizing slow attrition taking place during play. I did not find it all that appealing as written. However, I did like the unofficial version of PG that is discussed at boardgamegeek.com. It is called "Simplified Panzer Grenadier" and it eliminates the leaders and their cumbersome activations while largely retaining the combat system, which isn't all that bad, IMO.

>>>>Looking for a tactical game, preferably one with mutiple modules so I can do NWE 44, Barbarossa, N Africa etc.<<<<<

If that's the case then I don't recommend Conflict of Heroes. They have 1939 Poland campaign, Russia, and Guadalcanal.
The publisher had plans for France, NA and NWE games years and years ago (See BGG for all the discussions) but for some reason never published them and wasn't in any hurry to even publish the latest game Guadalcanal. (Their game counters and boards are very nice…. but if you want the variety of NWE 44 or N Africa, you need to look elsewhere)

The lesser-known Tank Leader system was designed by John Hill (Squad Leader) and does is fascinating in how it shows the effects of different command & control abilities. East Front, West Front, and Desert Steel games.

Each unit is part of a formation and each formation has card with a C2 rating and a morale. The turn starts with the formation with the worst C2 taking its (movement, fire, etc.) actions. However, either player can "trump" using a formation with a better C2. Then either player can trump that formation, etc. Once no one wants to trump, or can trump, you work your way down the activation stack of formation cards. You finish the stack, you move on to the unactivated formation with the worst C2.

The point of this is that the best formations can move before anyone else, or they can sit back and wait for everyone else to show their hands, or they can pounce at any point in between. It's pretty dramatic in Russia 1941 …

Units are platoons and foot infantry is barely mobile. The counters aren't great, but there are beautiful print-and-play set available, and Kerry Anderson is now selling die-cut sets. There's supposed to be a reprint of all three games in the works.

Eastern Front Tank Leader link

Western Front Tank Leader link

Desert Steel link

link Scroll down for the die-cut sheets. Link to the print-and-play is in the page header.

Tactical Gamex is the modern update for Panzer Leader. I haven't tried it yet, but do want to take it out for a spin and kick the roadwheels.
link

Something that we did, way back in Squad Leader days, was to play with the 1st 9 pages of the rules (infantry) and each side would select ONE specialty section- i.e. Artillery, Smoke, Mortars- etc.
This kept the complexity manageable.

You must check Band of Brothers at boardgamegeek.com. Honestly, there is room for BoB, CoH, and Panzer in one's collection. They are all very different games. I love CoH and own the series. I also own the entire SL system (never cared for ASL). Panzer is too derivative of PL for me, which I also own and cut my teeth on in the 70s but time has moved on. I also own nearly everything for Heroes of Normandie, which is a hoot in it own right.

If I were a 'serious' wargamer and had to choose one game if would be Band of Brothers. The system is amazing and smooth. CoH would be my second, or first if I had to have Eastern front and lots of armor. Right now HoN sees the table much more, ssometimes with the Hollywood angle and sometimes as a straight game. Even though iit'sa grid it works amazingly well, and I am a hex guy. It's just a hoot for me.

A little late to this thread, but I wanted to say that if you play solitaire at all, then Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear with the new Solo expansion module is by far the best solitaire experience in a wargame. It is much better than even the CoH two player game.

ASL is a child of the 1970s, great in its day but overly complex and a game that rewards knowledge of the rule book over knowledge of WW2 tactics. I played it religiously for 20 years and now realise the last 10 of those could have been spent pursuing other games. Most critically I discovered that 20 years of ASL actually taught me very little about WW2 tactical warfare. Great game, but not great WW2 tactical warfare.

JOhn Hill's Tank Leader serias are great games and glad they got some recognition.

A big influence on my Combat Command game. Hill also ironically did Squad Leader but than AH took over directly and layered on the complexity.

Hill remains the one of the few genius designers of our era.

May he rest in peace.

TomT

The real problem with ASL is not the complexity, it's the fact the core engine just doesn't reflect the key issues of WW2 tactical warfare. For example, there is no unit organisation, only squads, so there are no platoons or companies and the off shoot to that is there are no command structures. That's fine if you like a game where the player controls every single piece, where all orders are successfully transmitted and immediately acted upon exactly as the commander intended and everything flows in an orderly, predictable manner. That's not WW2 tactical warfare as I've ever understood it.

This seems odd in a game that has charts for everything from driving a motorcycle through a cactus grove, through to the effects of a rear hit by an antitank rifle on the un-armoured rear of a Japanese half track. Yet in the midst of all this detail it is possible for a conscript Italian half squad, on its own volition, to go on a bold mission behind enemy lines to round up a broken enemy squad that it magically saw using some sort of X-Ray vision through a factory complex.

As I said before, great tactical game, with an impressive WW2 veneer, but scratch below the surface and you will find it's a version of WW2 with a strange idea of how things were accomplished on the battlefield.