"Turkish Tanks Are Being Decimated In Syria" Topic

"Ankara's tanks have been in the news a lot this year, whether prowling the streets of the Turkish capital in a failed coup attempt, or taking missile fire from rebel fighters on the Syrian border.

Recently, Turkish armor crossed over into Syria and drove the Islamic State terrorist group from its last holdings along the Turkish border — and also fought with U.S.-backed Kurdish rebels, creating a frustrating diplomatic quandary for the White House.

It's easy to see why Turkey's tanks are so active. The country is facing one of its worst geopolitical crises in decades, and it also maintains an enormous tank force — more than 2,400 all told, greater than the tank forces of France, Germany and the United Kingdom combined.

But only Turkey's 354 German-made Leopard 2A4 tanks are modern designs, and even those date back to 1985…"
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Amicalement
Armand

M-60A1 and A3 Patton tanks still served with the U.S. Marines during the 1991 Persian Gulf War. These saw heavy combat against Iraqi tanks in Kuwait, knocking out around 100 tanks for the loss of just one Patton — largely testifying to the imbalance in training, tactics and supporting arms of the opposing forces.

Seems like a very nice kill ratio.

good article. thanks.

"Decimated" seems a bit hyperbolic.

Urban[MOUT] terrain is not a favorite location for AFVs with all the Inf AT weapons around, like RPGs, AT-4s, etc., etc. Infantry should support the AFVs in MOUT, as well as FA to suppress/kill enemy units in urban terrain. The caveat there is to be careful of CD.

And as we see, not only do you have to have superior equipment but know how to use it. The Turks may not be as "effective" in MOUT as other armies like the US, UK, etc.. Not only because of better training but experience.

Yes, "decimated" seems to be the wrong term. IIRC, meaning 1 out of 10 are "killed" … It does not appear this is the case with the Turk's AFVs ?

And generally US/Euro/IDF Tanks even if not the current state of the art. Like … say an M60 MBT. With the superior training usually "bests" more current arab/moslem AFVs. Of Russian or PRC designs. If they are fielded and in a Tank or Tank engagement …

Glad you enjoyed it my friend!. (smile)

Amicalement
Armand

It will be interesting to see what battlefield effect drones will have on tanks. Clouds of cheap drones equipped with the right sort of missile or bomb might be able to nullify many of the expensive tank's traditional strengths and defenses? Or mark them for distant artillery or missile batteries?

I doubt that Turkey has lost over 200 main battle tanks since entering Syria, so decimate seems a bit of stretch.

Cheers.
Rod Robertson.

Clouds of cheap drones equipped with the right sort of missile or bomb might be able to nullify many of the expensive tank's traditional strengths and defenses?

And how are those drones controlled. I would not rely on drones working, if someone does not want them to work.

I can envision ground controlled, wire-guided anti-tank/observation drones with a pop-up/Nap of the earth capability if jamming is an issue. Rapid cycle multi-frequency capability and the use counters to the jammers themselves (which are extremely easy to find on the battlefield) means that jamming can be only partially effective at best. The wire guided RPV would have no fear of any jamming and a ground team might well be able port a few. Semi disposable equivalent of a chopper without need for loiter or transit time to the battle.

If the target is hull down, a hellfire or even smaller warhead from a disposable RPV from above means deck armor needs to be as thick as frontal to survive.

I doubt that Turkey has lost over 200 main battle tanks since entering Syria, so decimate seems a bit of stretch.

Totally agree … more like hyperbole as F/logic pointed out.

It will be interesting to see what battlefield effect drones will have on tanks

I wouldn't count on drones drastically changing MBTs/AFVs operations. Drones have been around for a while … and if that was the case, any target would be very much more vulnerable. We have not seen that yet on the battlefield. At least in large numbers … As of yet …

Could see a drone operating on a 'closed' circuit where it is programmed to go to a certain area then fire at any metal object over a certain size or with a certain outline – if it can recognise the target without reference to a home base then it can't be hacked. System can be preprogrammed regarding route and missile systems on a time or GPS basis so that it switches off when approaching 'friends'. Wire guided or heat seeking missiles reduce chance of missile systems being hacked.

Having seen some of the videos of Turkish tank kills (probably from the PKK) I'm not impressed by the Turks. They seem desperate to break every rule in the book. When a ATGM goes off (and the signature of ALL ATGM launches is distinctive), they sit around with their thumbs up their butts as the missile wanders in to nail a tank. Don't they know ANYTHING about "Sagger Watches"??? Or having infantry tight in to lay fire on the launches??? And they sit fat, dumb and happy on TOP of ridge lines skylining themselves to every manpad ATGM in the neighborhood. That and more, much more. If they took even the most basic tactical precautions they wouldn't lose nearly as many tanks. Dumb, just plain dumb….

It will be interesting to see what battlefield effect drones will have on tanks. Clouds of cheap drones equipped with the right sort of missile or bomb might be able to nullify many of the expensive tank's traditional strengths and defenses? Or mark them for distant artillery or missile batteries?

Drones have already been used by artillery for marking targets. And some already carry ATGMs. And the net effect has been…. not much. It'll be awhile before any real significant damage comes from drones. And by then, a countermeasure will be in place (in, some respects, already is: its called AAA).

I'll believe "the Tank is Dead" crowd when it happens… And it ain't happened yet (and probably won't for a looooong time).

If the target is hull down, a hellfire or even smaller warhead from a disposable RPV from above means deck armor needs to be as thick as frontal to survive.

Unless your target has one of those active defense systems (that are all the rage). These things are suppose to stop KE and HEAT tank rounds. Imagine what a ATGM looks like (fat, dumb and oh so slooooooow). Then your drone is a not so impressive over priced RC airplane without a cause (or clue).

C12 … I agree with all three of your posts. Especially about drones, FA, and MBTs/AFVs being sent to the elephants' graveyard … Of course, you being a former Tanker and I, being former Mech … Some may believe we are biased … So Frakk'm …

3 simple reasons for that:
nationality of the crew?..Russians?..no ..Turkish
use of tanks in open spaces?..no! among or close to built areas..
quick/unespected/agressive use of tanks?..no clumsy/cautios advance

Italwars- Its basic, rock bottom security, whether moving fast or moving slow, sitting in laager or moving through close areas (forest or urban. BTW, tanks should NEVER enter such areas without infantry. To do so is suicide). And its taught at the lowest levels of armor school. That the Turks don't get it speaks volumes.

Combined Arms … most in that region don't get it. Save for the IDF … of course …

I doubt that Turkey has lost over 200 main battle tanks since entering Syria, so decimate seems a bit of stretch.

Erm did anyone say Turkey deployed all 2,000+ tanks to Turkey?

The Turkish deployments have been small – mainly battalion size (specified in article as about 39 tanks).

We've not seen any deployment of M48 or Leopard I-IIs. It's mainly been M60A3s and some of the upgraded ones. There's 3 armoured brigades assigned to this area as well as 3mechanised brigades (2nd Army jurisdiction) but I'm not sure if all 6 of these units have M60s or if some are equipped with Leo Is or M48s.

I've not seen any confirmations of unit identities or total number of troops deployed. Turkey is highly secretive and it doesn't help it's actually fighting two separate wars.

So given amount of tanks deployed, the losses might be close to decimation (ie losses of 1 in 10).

Good intel … And yes, probably anyone outside the Turk Chain of Command. Really knows what's deployed and what they are or will do ?