"App Aided Wargame: Placing a Tablet on the Table" Topic

I was checking out a board game review of "Mansions of Madness 2nd edition." Although the game itself is played with miniatures moving about on map tiles the app generates a random scenario map and adds the various creatures while recording the damage taken and health status of the characters and creatures etc..

I think most of us wargamers would ideally prefer to keep the tabletop wargames separate from our computer games, but the apparent unobtrusive implementation of this app directing hidden information to the table seemed an evolutionary step towards an effective solo aid or maybe a tool for employing a real empty battlefield to wargamers without umpires.

The reviewer mentioned that he was originally fully opposed to the concept of an app driven board game but completely fell in love with the game after playing several times.

With tech advancements do you think there's any place for something like this in our wargames?

Link to the video
YouTube link

Working on one currently. I've written and self-published a (free) Naval wargame (navalwar.boards.net), but the problem with those games is that you cannot avoid some sort of bookkeeping to keep track of hullpoints, damage etc.

I've designed nice datacards and they work like a charm using dry erase markers etc, but the concept lends itself perfectly for an app or web-based application where you can make a fleet list, organise the ships and then get the digital data-cards where you can mark damage etc. It takes a crapload of stuff away from the table and is much easier to update etc.

The problem for most wargamers is that we are avid writers and players, but usually fall a bit short on the digital end. And even while I consider myself quite handy with computers and databases, its still quite a different can of worms trying to build an app or functional website for this purpose.

Outsourcing is not really an option, since a working app will quickly run into the thousands of euros just to get it built if you can't do it yourself or know someone who is willing to do it for you (the road I'm travelling currently)

More than that.
Truly complex mechanisms could be implemented with an inteligent board and bases.
The system could identify the stand position within a digital grid automatically calculating distances and warning about an illegal move, for ex.
Unit data could be stored for each base on a database or even on the base itself (see the Skylanders console game).
The possibilities are endless.
But the bottom line is: can this give an interesting intelectual experience or is just hiden dice rolling (just one more luck game).

For Warmachine/Hordes ( a "Steampunk" miniatures game) there is an app called War Room that is very useful for not only creating army lists, but also for keeping track of unit status in game itself.

The same sort of thing would be perfect for naval wargames to keep track of damage to the ship, speed and heading, etc.

Absolutely. I use computer aided mechanics regularly on game day at home.

A computer aided mechanic is like any other technique. It has strengths and limitations. Play to the strengths and respect the limitations and you are bound to improve the way your game plays. Ignore the strengths and believe falsehoods about the limitations and … well … you can do that with dice rolling mechanics, too.

So, what are the strengths:

Scale – Computers can store and retrieve tons of data quickly compared to paper … IF … you have a simple index. If you have to make a complicated input (prone to error!), then you are better of with tables.

Dimensionality – Speaking of tables, computers handle three, four, and higher dimensional tables much easier than print. Same caveat about indices. Fighter, level 3 close combat attacking AC 2 target. Four dimensions (two numbers, two basic pick lists) of pretty basic info, easy to do. The additional danger is that the more dimensions you pile on, the harder it is to manipulate. You can also collapse dimensions into a nomogram on paper, but I am the only person in the known universe who likes nomograms.

Hidden Info – The computer can hold and process information without disclosing it. This is much harder to do with physical manipulables (though possible). Often times, you have to reveal the info earlier than you would like in order to carry out a combat interaction. This can even do fog of war … you get a report of damage taken by Company B, but you don't know exactly how that affected their combat readiness until you use them next.

Fixed Size, Variable Capacity – One unit sheet takes up the same amount of space as fifty. Downside: One unit sheet takes up the same amount of space as fifty. But, it's a nice thing for herding buckets of dice. A computer can also automatically sort your rolls into >x, <=x bins for hits or saves.

More Complex Tracking – You can easily implement detailed damage to a capital ship engine room and give differing effects from different hits. You can even have each ship have a unique engine room layout, because, really, 263 ships does mean 263 classes of ship. Of course, you have to input and control those distinctions then.

Overall Limitations:

No judgement calls. If you have the computer doing to many things in a row, there is no room for when events go outside the expectations of the programmer. You end up locked into a process chain without the freedom to adjust for differences between the reality of your game and the model of reality the programmer used.

Power/Malfunctions/Beer Spillage. You're dependent on a fickle technology. When it doesn't work, for whatever reason, it doesn't work. Sometimes you can overcome that in short order. Sometimes not. Breaking a figure, losing a die or a ruler are much easier to overcome. All spilling beer on your QRS needs is some swearing and a couple of paper towels to fix.

'Course there's more. Anyone?

I proposed – but did not have the money for – developing just such an "umpire" app. The concept was fairly simple and one developed said it was not really very hard to do. Here is what I had in mind (feel free to steal this idea and get rich):

The app is a hot seat app in that you take your turn then pass the app to the next player. After every one has their turn the app issues directions on what to do on the table.

First, you break your table up in to squares. Let's say you go with 4" squares. Now place your terrain and code each square for height (default =1). So mark each woods hex as 3, each field as 2, etc. The app doesn't care about terrain type, simply height for LOS calculations.

Now each player marks on the app where his units move to. At the end of the turn the app lists which units should be placed on the map. My idea was to limit it to say, the first 3 or 4 turns after that all units are revealed.

We are currently working on an app for our Polemos Napoleon rules which is out for beta testing.

Think of it as a play sheet, roster pad, turn marker and, if needs be, dice set all on a smartphone or tablet. Games are less cluttered and game play is speeded up significantly. A three hour game takes two hours.

It is not a cheap or a quick process to produce such an app, but they do offer a big leap forward in game management and play.

We are currently working on an app for our Polemos Napoleon rules which is out for beta testing.

Think of it as a play sheet, roster pad, turn marker and, if needs be, dice set all on a smartphone or tablet. Games are less cluttered and game play is speeded up significantly. A three hour game takes two hours.

This is exactly the sort of thing that would make me buy a set of rules. Publishers/authors take note!

I'm a developer.
The disconnect between table and tablet is the main issue IMO.

Andy: very well said.
This is the same issue about railroad train control by tablet, it does not feel right. I like programming and did several GUI for wargaming including a pairing database and an hex grid editor for A Blitz. One simp!e version is available in the Arcane Warfare Project yhaoo group for ancient campaigns.
But I do not feel inclined to program for gaming with minis.
To add computing power without table interaction will just be boring.

The XCOM board game is co-operative, and the aliens are played by the App/Programme – its like Pandemic, except the cards are replaced by the app.

Would love to see a double-blind spotting app to eliminate the need for a referee.

I had something like a Midway scenario in mind.

Each player moves their ships/planes on their own hex map, on their own tablet, enforcing movement restrictions. Then, an end-of-turn map of what is actually placed on the game board is generated, and the players duke it out with dice.

I think is has already been said. To be of use the tablet would need to know were each troop was on table, its fire arcs and the presence or absence of intervening terrain to be useful. So far I have seen nothing that does this painlessly. Just using it to do more complex calculations seems of little value. I did watch the video. My opinion was that it could have been done with lots of extra cards organized in special ways. Not really a major advantage except it can store lots of card sets and table configurations. This may be of use in a board game but is not a useful trait in a war game in my opinion. so no I do not currently see me being caught by this. Now if you could replace the miniatures with full holograms that looked solid, that would be a stunner. No more painting, no more storage/transport problems and equally unlikely.

To be of use the tablet would need to know were each troop was on table

That is a difficult and error-prone thing to do with computers, but far from necessary to improving the experience.

This is one page of a BattleTech stat sheet. Here is an easy place to go:

So we've decrease the required space which can help the user (when done right). And we've made some improvements:

1) The table data (without the colored boxes) is arranged in tabs, so you can see the one you want at the time and don't have to scan such a large area.

You could also have tab views that are optimized for different situations. So if "strike mode" and "close engage mode" are better served with different views of the stats, you can have all the variant tabs, and carry the data from one to another.

You could also allow players to customize their own tabs to gave a personal, player-style view.

You could do all this manually, but at the expense of more sheets of paper and time spent copying the same data to multiple locations.

2) The detailed damage tracking and custom critical hit tables are replaced with simple click-on area charts that give you numbers instead of requiring you to count all the little dots or do math on the fly.

Animating the front/back view (with a pause, of course) helps compress the space the player needs to look at and helps visually correlate the front and back in the player's eye. Like the tabs, you could have different "views" of the status like "damage taken", "effectiveness %", "repair rate", and so on.

3) The heat tracker and chart are compressed into a visual heat dial (which can easily be color with no crayons or special pencils required) that displays the current game effect underneath instead of requiring a look up on the whole table.

4) It's not visible in the notional graphic above, but a computer can help with a lot of the other things, like the time (turn) dependent things players have to remember to do. It's only a temporary problem with the left arm that lasts two turns? Next turn, you're reminded it is getting better, and two turns later, your stats are updated back to normal (with a message, too).

So … what if you don't play BattleTech. Well, I don't. But the same types of approaches could make modern naval (or even age of sail) wargaming much more enjoyable. You could go beyond the current damage tracking mechanisms to make them more detailed without adding overhead to the user. They simply roll the dice and instead of writing on a sheet or moving a bunch of cards and tokens that get spilled and bumped, clicks a couple times on the tab. And they get a more realistic and enjoyable response from the game.

Really, any game where you keep track of a detailed status could be streamlined and enhanced with the above approaches.

It will definitely happen more. But to what extent, who knows?

Boardgames that use cards and area/point-to-point movement are suitable targets. Miniatures games would be more problematic. The temptation might be to implement the miniatures game as a grid game. End result might be a computer game rather than a game assistance app.

In the video Tom Vasel uses some standard game design "buzz words" like "exploration" and "solo play" to describe why he likes the app concept. Do wargame designers have the level of games design experience to make an app interesting enough for people to want to use it?

Sorry no sale.

The person who writes the software rules the game.

I don't even trust a computer to roll the dice.

A lifetime of working with computers both in MIS and Production Management showed me that it all falls apart very quickly and very easily.

If a computer can do it all then who needs me?

If a computer can do it all then who needs me?

Only people who actually design worthwhile computer aided tools. There are things that people do well and things that computers do well. When you try to get people to do things that computers do well, the process drags and is error prone. when you try to get computers to do things that people do well, they grossly under reach the desired performance space.

I don't even trust a computer to roll the dice.

Again, the same strawman. Nobody said "in order to have a computer aid, it must roll the dice for you".

The person who writes the software rules the game.

No more than the person who writes any other part of the game.

Some poor software can be compensated with manual workarounds. Some is compensated by chucking it. Pretty much the same with any other part of wargame rules. Sometimes you can work around it and modify things. Other times you go to a different game.

Disclaimer: I haven't been programming computers for all my life. Only 39 years of it. (And despite what my kids say (and imply) it's not FOUR FREAKIN' DECADES … well, yet. For a few months …)

The temptation might be to implement the miniatures game as a grid game. End result might be a computer game rather than a game assistance app.

Yep. This is pretty much a problem with software … doing things because they are cool or easy instead of they are needed. Wait … that's also a problem with wargames … or websites … or work projects … OK, "part of the human condition".

Do wargame designers have the level of games design experience to make an app interesting enough for people to want to use it?

Not necessarily. Nor do they necessarily have the skills to do their own art or photography.

Like most software projects, this should be a back and forth between game designers and software developers to understand what the strengths and challenges for either side are and where wargaming (or, a specific wargame) could benefit from computer automation.