"Hunting Boomers" Topic

Do the likes of Typhoons, Oscars, Ohios and Vanguards operate on their own while on patrol or might they have escorts of attack subs to protect them from enemy attack subs?

If the latter, can they communicate when submerged to co-ordinate their actions?

Also, can anyone say how often attack subs operate in groups and, if so, how do they co-ordinate?

Thanks for any info.

Oops--clicked because it sounded like a "Most Dangerous Game" for Millennials.Whew!

Sorry.

I was actually thinking that the Boomers were hunting Millenials.

Subs don't really have the capability to talk to each other *covertly*. Sure, there's the underwater telephone, but that's about as subtle as a fart in the swimming pool. Everyone in the ocean can hear you.

So all modern subs basically operate alone, whether boomers or fast attack.

That said, it's my understanding that the Soviets planned to have fast-attack subs patrolling the perimeter of the "bastions" where their boomers hid.

Lion is correct. Western Boomers operate alone, in times of war an attack boat may be assigned to the same general area, but for the western navies, Boomers operate far from base near a potential enemies territory and rely on stealth.

Russian Boomers operate in one of two bastions (Arctic and Pacific). Generally, there would be attack boats assigned to guard said bastions along with surface vessels. This was the primary role of the Soviet Navy's surface fleet, and why it had such a strong ASW focus. Would imagine the Russian Navy operates in the same way today (to a lesser degree).

I've heard the same, and suspect US subs may also do that.

If detected, I suspect the detectee could send a one letter or number, coded message in an underwater burst to any "friends" lurking in the area, that represents tactics, or countermeasures suggested to be used to help deal with a threat. Of course, they could also broadcast in the open as well, but that would take more time.

The problem is that any sonar signal is detectable by everyone in the area, you can't really do directional sound very well.

So you've just positively revealed your position. The only thing that happens to a sub after its position is revealed is that it dies.

You can come closer to the surface and release a bouyant device attached to a wire antenna. Then you can broadcast a coded burst, retract the wire, and go deeper.

For added refinement, AWACS, drones, and satellites can be rebroadcasting those bursts so that whenever a submarine sticks an antenna out of the water, it receives all of the information that's been transmitted by its fellows.

Thanks for the comments (and jokes!).

So, no marauding wolfpacks of Los Angeles and Seawolfs, hunting down a Typhoon?

Perhaps a realistic game would then be a couple of Russian attack subs against a solitary NATO boomer or one or two NATO attack subs against a Russian boomer with a couple of attack subs on some for, of perimeter cordon?

Dear Alan,
I don't know about other NATO practice but the Brits kept their SSNs in rigid patrol areas to prevent the chance of a "blue on blue" engagement. In most cases SSNs were forbidden to enter another SSN's engagement area even in "hot pursuit." Hennessy and Jinks' "The Silent Deep" has the details. So one British boat vs one Russian Boomer is all you can expect. (And the Brits call their "Boomers" "Bombers.")

The Brits retained this rigid control pattern even in the Falklands/Malvinas campaign when there were no enemy SSNs to get confused with. Two of the three boat commanders circumvented these restrictions by coming to the agreement: "I promise not to attack a nuclear submarine, if you do too.) (p.414)

Cheers,
Bertie

There is some chance of that, I suspect, in a hot war, but in many cases both sides can tell what type of sub they are up against by the sound of their props, and the number of turns they're making, so I've been lead to believe.

Given enough time, they can even identify which sub in a class they may be up against as well. Of course, that could just be movie magic/myth, but with advanced computers and listening gear, I suspect it might be true too.

Fighter aircraft can tell what types of jets they're up against by their engine blade rotations, supposedly, if facing them from the front.

Tom Clancy is only spewing BS about a computer system that can ID things automatically.

Otherwise, well, he's pretty close. For example, a P3 Orion (and C130) have a nasty 68hz tonal drone that you can detect while relatively close to the surface. Can't tell the difference between individual P3s, though.

Similarly, the older Soviet subs had distinctive tonals because of their stamped screw blades.

You can come closer to the surface and release a bouyant device attached to a wire antenna. Then you can broadcast a coded burst, retract the wire, and go deeper.

Takes too long to float a wire or buoy (not to mention that they're not really able to talk to a satellite). It's much faster to pop up to periscope depth and stick an antenna mast up and shoot off a message, check to see what messages there are for you, then go deep and fast to clear the area, because you might have been detected.

For added refinement, AWACS, drones, and satellites can be rebroadcasting those bursts so that whenever a submarine sticks an antenna out of the water, it receives all of the information that's been transmitted by its fellows.

Different radios mean different frequencies, which need different antennas. VLF antennas, used to talk to subs while they're underwater, are up to a mile long. Satellite antennas are much higher frequency, but are also much more directional.

But otherwise, that's about how submarines operated 15 years ago. Messages go up to the satellite and get rebroadcast for everyone to read. Well, everyone with the right crypto.

VLF or ELF radios have a very low data rate, so they're basically used as beepers, telling whichever sub to come up and get urgent radio traffic. Otherwise, a sub will pop up every so often to check for messages. Not sure I should say how often.

In peacetime, subs are assigned operating areas and depths. When two subs are in the same area, they are assigned with one boat deep and the other shallow, but the deep boat has "skylights" where it can come up to the surface. All this is to minimize the chance of collisions, since US subs are obscenely quiet, even during normal operations. Rigged for Ultraquiet, your first hint that another submarine is there is when you physically collide with one (or when their torpedo doors open 10 seconds before the torpedo launches, but we try to have torpedo doors open before rigging for ultraquiet).

But for a sub to detect another sub in an area where there's not supposed to be one, well, that's a battlestations moment. Or at least a fire control tracking party (which is all the battlestations sonar, fire control, torpedomen, and usually the ship control party). Flood down and equalize the snapshot torpedo tube(s), load/arm countermeasures, and prepare to engage with extreme prejudice.

spewing BS about a computer system that can ID things automatically

Considering how good computers have become at separating signal from noise, I'm kind of surprised at this. But even from my avid layman's reading, the undersea sonar environment is…complicated. Good friend of mine was a sonarman on USS Chandler (DDG-996), back in the 80's, and has tried to explain what he can.

It's complicated. So maybe I shouldn't be too surprised.

At the computer, not at Clancy. :)

Very many thanks, as always.

I think I will go for a Typhoon or Oscar with a Kilo and Akula for the Russians and a Los Angeles and Seawolf for the US.

The Akula and Sierra classes were built to protect the Boomer Bastions, so that's a good call. Should be a Typhoon or Delta for the target sub, though. Oscars are SSGNs, they'd be hunting convoys in the Atlantic.

688 and a Seawolf would be about right, though the Seawolves were designed to single-handedly take down an entire battle group. Had the US built more than 2 of them during the Cold War, we probably would have used them to hunt boomers, too. Seawolves are better under the ice than anything but 688i.

Today, all 3 Seawolves are assigned to Submarine Development Squadron 5, which is the same unit that USS Parche was assigned to. So they're doing Blind Man's Bluff games and Arctic research missions.

Lion,

Thsnk you.

Alan