"3D Printing to Turn Miniatures Gaming Market Into War Zone" Topic

For your consideration: link

Will 3D printing change the industry? Sure, and it already has by opening up the fields of sculpting and production to anyone.

Is it going to be death knell for GW and other powerhouses? I really don't think so. Household 3D printers are still a long ways away from matching the quality of industrial printers or injection-molded plastics.

With people now offering free files for 3D printing, games workshop is not the only company that will have to worry about price point and marketing their product.

Every company will come under attack – and the first to suffer will be sculptors. Why will they be the first – because if you have individuals that are willing to offer 3D printable files for free that cover all types of miniatures, then you will have people willing to print and provide those miniatures to the people that game with.

Take a look the posting of the free 3D files for 15mm tanks. Why pay a sculptor when anyone could start a company selling tanks by first printing these tanks for a few dollars and some time. Then once printed, they could be molded and cast up in either resin or metal copies. Even for the home guy doing it for fellow gamers, that person would not have to print a new tank, just go to the hobby shop and pick up a home casting kit, and away you go, and away go the sales of every company making tanks in 15mm.

Already there- and I posted the tanks. Those were free files. I don't intend on selling them, just using them, but that means money I won't give to Battlefront.

On the flip side, many sculptors are making money off their Shapeways sites, as printing your own files still requires cleanup, and for most home printers, that's a fair bit of work. I'm working on a project right now (paying a sculptor) and I get my masters done by Shapeways rather than using my own hobbyist printer due to the difference in quality. The day is coming when that difference will be minor at best.

It's notoriously litigious—it once famously sued an author for her use of the term "Space Marine"—

Yes they tried and the bad PR put a stop to that.

Plus they did not fair well in the Chapterhouse lawsuit either.

The biggest bonus with 3D printing would be with Terrain pieces.

I think you are looking at 3D printing from the wrong perspective. With 3D printing the sculptors can do variations of the same figure so every figure in a unit can be unique. How about an American Civil war army of 1000+ figures with no duplicate figures. Then you have the custom market where the sculptor makes a custom figure that is too complex to be molded (you lose the detail) and has a limited run on a 3D printer.

3D printers WILL become as commonplace as inkjet photo printers are now. You can expect to see high-res desktop models within the next ten years, priced at about $500 USD – $1,000. USD By hi-res, I mean of the same quality as Shapeways FUD material. The demand, largely fuelled by industrial and educational institutions, is already there, the only issue is reduction in size and cost. That's being whittled away constantly, it's only a matter of time.

Full-colour, graduated 3D printing will quickly follow. Yes, you will be able to print full-colour miniatures, that look better than hand-painted ones, in minutes. What that means for our hobby, I'll let you debate.

It will certainly liberate the market, but I don't think GW or other manufacturers will be going bust too soon. They'll see the writing on the wall, and release 'official' printing files of their designs, for a price. And people will pay for having the 'official' files, just as they pay now for 'official' miniatures, rather than near-copies.

We've had 2d printers as a readily available consumer product for 20-30 years. How many people are printing their own books vs simply buying a book? There has been a little shift in the bookmarket, but it is still far more convenient to buy a book compared to printing it yourself.

Sure, 3d printing will change things, but more on the production side than the consumer side. I guess the gamers printing their own figures will be the same hobbyists that now cast their own metal figures. It is possible to do, but unless you really like doing it as a hobby activity by itself, why bother?

If cannot imagine I will fiddle around with a 3d printer just to print a few miniatures instead of just ordering them from the manufacturer. He might 3d print them in a high quality for me as a special order, that's possible.

Now, if we would have something like A Star Trek replicator, that would a different story ;-)

(And yes, I know a thing or two about 3d printing)

Phil, the comparison with book publication is not an accurate one. The difference is in the scale of production; One may self-publish a book on one's desktop printer, but that only works if you're after three or four copies. Obviously, a more industrial-scale set-up is needed if the intent is to print, say, 1000 copies.

But, consider printing photographs. 20 years ago, I worked at a place that printed photos. To do so required a machine with a 10x4' footprint, which cost around $11,000. USD Today, you can achieve the same quality of photo prints with an inkjet that costs less than $200. USD

Even the most fanatical gamer isn't going to want 1000 copies of the same miniature. They may want a hundred of one pose or type, fifty of another, ten officer figures, and a few standard-bearers. The 3D printers that will be in the market in five years will be capable of producing that sort of output in a couple of hours, with no waste of material. They won't be $200 USD… but give them another five years after that, and we'll see.

Economically, it will make more sense to create the files for printing, sell those with a limiter in the files to restrict how many one can print, and sell said files, with no issues of distributors, postage, packaging, etc…

The hobby / collectable and arts industries are very likely to find 3D file sales the primary means of income, as they are largely exempt from considerations such as flammability, or material failure issues. (Which is why you won't be 3D printing a chainsaw at home!)

Sure, at the lower end of the scale, 3D printing is still a hobby-centric affair. But that will not last much longer. As serious players get involved, and serious money comes in, the tech and the patents will get leaner, meaner, and less available to the hobbyist who wants to build their own printer.

I've noticed a lot of similarities between 3D hobbyists today and PC hobbyists of the 1980's. Back then, PC's were largely a fun thing for people with a love of circuit boards and soldering irons. Then, someone realised how much money there was to be made from the things… and look where we are now.

So, I think the 3D printer hobby-builder will, like his PC-buiding ancestor, become extinct within a decade. But, if you're happy to just buy a printer off the shelf, and churn out full-colour armies, then the world will be your oyster.

Does the building of 3d printers as a hobby really matter? Isn't it more about the use of the printers to make miniatures that is pertinent here? As you put it, what will really make the world your oyster?

I've been looking at getting into Napoleonics and the end result for me is that I'm going to design and print my own. The interesting thing will be what happens after that.

While I put the files for free on thingiverse and make them open source and anyone who wants to print them can do so? Will I try to sell the figures? Perhaps through a fulfillment service like Shapeways? Will I make moulds of 3d printed masters and cast them? Either for just my own collection or to sell? Will I approach some existing companies and ask if they are interested in the designs?

Now here's an interesting question: what happens when the printers that do multiple colours get a tiny bit better:

What happens when you can do that but with 6mm, 10mm, 15mm or 28mm miniatures? Not just pre-painted, but pre-highlighted and pre-shaded.

I think this is more of an opportunity than a threat. Let's be honest, the majority of people are not tech geeks. And unless certain barriers to 3d printing are removed the average person just isn't going to use the technology. Removing supports, polishing, annealing and so on. Home printers simply did not revolutionize the book industry. Tablets and ereaders though? they made the difference.

3d printers are equivalent of the home printers for books. The thing that would turn the market into a war zone is the equivalent of the tablet or ereader. What would that even look like for 3d printing?

For all this, I'm stewing over a word. Usually people get there, they're, and their confused. He used a new one, "thier". BTW, that figure above is really cool. What's the story behind it?

Sad Keaneu? Its a meme based on this photo or one similar:

For all this, I'm stewing over a word. Usually people get there, they're, and their confused. He used a new one, "thier".

:D Adding in proper nouns means the sky is the limit.

For me, autocorrect has become the bane of my existence.

BTW, that figure above is really cool. What's the story behind it?

It's just someone's take on that meme that Pictors mentioned. The material is okay for statues like that but doesn't quite have the resolution or low cost for our miniature purposes (yet).

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"Yet" – Indeed! We are closer to "painted" 28mm Napoleonic figures than I had imagined.

Several key points that are being missed here.

First, as the article pointed out in terms of GW stuff, those not interested in tournament gaming but are in the game, will be satisfied with printed copies that are close enough to the original. Remember, it is not only GW that is losing sales to 3D printing, it is also the local game store.

Second, You do not need a horde of gamers using 3D printers to effect the miniature businesses. One person in a gaming group can effect sales because that person can provide stuff for 6 to a dozen people who use to purchase from a variety of game manufacturers. And, if that same person enters into a business of providing that product, either through resale or free, this type of scene can play out in a lot of other gaming groups.

third, this changes the competition model. Most gamers who will get into providing 3D files will have other jobs, meaning they don't need the money to support a business. The 3D sculpting now becomes their hobby. And, in terms of space to operate a 3D operation, think table top. No casting machine or operation in the garage, very little investment in raw materials (most of which will be used for their own play toys and some for friends).

Someone one in this thread that 3D sculpting will benefit the manufacturer more than the consumer, but it will not take that many consumers getting into 3D printing to then basically change the manufacturing from what it is now to strictly a Shapeways model, because you can't operate a business that employs people if the core of what it depends on for daily operation is gone.

And, before anyone who says I am against competition, I am not, my point is that the new competition gets to use steroids.

It is certainly possible that I've been hanging out with artists and artisans too much, but I'm actually okay with a drastic decentralization of production. And with distribution and sales channels changing or even disappearing.

In the end though, I still think it's going to come down to marketing. Going to shows, making sure people know about your product and doing old fashioned sales alongside new means of marketing.

It used to be music was sold mostly through retail stores and bands would have to tour to get any revenue at all. Now the music can be sold directly or through market places with better rates and the touring is still done but now it is just as much about creating a following to direct fans to revenue streams the musicians have more control over. The retail stores have been replaced, but the marketing still drives the industry.

Flashman14: "Yet" – Indeed! We are closer to "painted" 28mm Napoleonic figures than I had imagined.

I imagine there will be someone who tries to force it to work before the technology is really there yet. And then shortly after that fizzles out the real deal will arrive. There is one particular area where I would think it would work already (40 & 54mm toy soldier style figures and flats), but the cost to the end user is probably still higher than commission painted versions of the same thing and there is something to the heft of metal.

"And, before anyone who says I am against competition, I am not, my point is that the new competition gets to use steroids."

But that is irrelevant because it isn't a sporting competition it is business and progress. 3D printing is going to happen. It may or may not shut down gaming companies but railing for or against it won't change it either way.

Consumers are either going to buy the printers and they will work out better or not.

My guess is that, like the example of books up above, most people will still buy figures than print them.

Until you can print them very well painted, then it is a different story entirely.

Still I'd imagine that the costs will be more than the cheapest 28mm figs on the market per figure.

"And, before anyone who says I am against competition, I am not, my point is that the new competition gets to use octane."

Figured I'd modify the quote of Miniatureships to make an analogy of the horse and buggy industry and the automobile.

The real question for current producers is how are you going to avoid disruption from this technology? Did any of the buggy manufacturers manage to transition into automobile manufacturers? Or position themselves as transportation companies rather than horse and buggy companies?

I think the key lies in where the analogy breaks down. A 3d printed figure, even in colour, is not substantially different from a cast one. It's not the end product that's revolutionary like the automobile was, it's the mode of production and distribution. What won't change is the end result: figures on the table. And people will always value not having to make their own.

If that demand is met by a ton of smaller producers, I'm okay with that. I maintain that success in such a market place will be about marketing and sales and that technical hobbyists who make stuff for their friends are usually not the type of people to get into that. I know I've sold people stuff a friend of theirs could have gotten them for cheaper. I've been the technically minded buddy who can get things for people really cheap until I realized I was devaluing myself by doing so.

Sites like wargames vault allow any hobbyist to put out a rules set for cheap and yet TooFatLardies went with a staggeringly large print run of 30,000 copies of Sharpe Practice 2. The distribution if PDFs means anyone can get into publishing for nearly zero dollars and yet commercial rules publishers seem to be having a great time of it.

Rich Clarke of 2fatL probably calculated his possible sales and did not want the 30% loss of going through another party to sell. It is a choice most likely based on expected returns.
He is ready to sustain the chore of sendind 1000s of parcels to customers.

He has the customer base built, the site, the promotion, the " fame" to allow for it, hard worked for over 10. Years, not every one is prepared to go through it and actually can, hence wargames vault. He could invest because of the huge sucess of COC… And the user friendly UK taxes etc. system for small enterprise.

I am really torn about 3D printed and computer-aided design models. On the one hand, I have never seen a CAD model of a living creature that I have ever liked… They are all weird, sterile and synthetic looking… Like little clones with slightly different expressions on an eerily similar face. On the other hand, I often find CAD models of non-living, mechanical things to be excellent. The new plastic Battletech models, the Dystopian Wars stuff… Really awesome figures. CAD, done right, seems to make excellent robots, buildings and machines, but it makes such awful organic life forms.

I definitley agree with the article, though. I pine for the days when skilled artisans like Julie Guthrie, Kev Adams and Sandra Garrity carefully carved each model by hand. Hand-crafted work has real humanity and psyche to it, despite (or perhaps because of) the slight imperfections and nuances it reveals.

I imagine lots of miniatures you like and would never guess we're done in 3d software were done in zBrush with a tactile sculpting interface.

I agree though that the ones done in parametric cad programs tend to have a certain late 90s CG look to them.

Another effect of 3D printing may be the demise of some shows, especially in the UK.

Here most shows are geared toward selling stuff. We go along, collect our pre-ordered figures or just impulse buy a new set of figures

Now if we aren't buying hundreds of miniatures each at shows, nor paints and brushes, will shows still survive on sales of books, rules and basing materials? Or, will we just go along to see the games?

Another thing on the differences in feel between putty sculpted and digital sculpted miniatures. With improvements in 3d scanning it doesn't matter. You can take a sculpted putty master, scan it and make a file that can be 3d printed.

As for shows, I still maintain that the most valuable part of a business is its ability to sell its product. The ability to get people to know about it, want it and actually make a purchase. So I think shows will become more relevant. As will internet marketing. If everyone can make 3d masters for cheap and perhaps even the cost of individual prints drops down so you can use that as your main means of production (rather than spin casting, injection moulding, resin moulding, etc.,) then what will set the successful companies apart from the hobbyists? Sales. Marketing. Actually going to the shows and getting in front of people. Creating an online following so when you post a news item about your next release people buy it.

So what's really causing this boom in 3d printing and the drastic price reductions in 3d printers? Is it mass production driving costs down? Nope. It's patents that are expiring.

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Here is a chess set some guys made of themselves:

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Reading all of this, I have to say:

The technology of printing a 3D object is amazing enough. But the thought that they'll be able to print fully COLORED miniatures complete with shading and highlighting? To a level that couldn't be achieved by a human with a brush?

That's terrifying in both good and bad ways!

I recently ordered 4 miniatures from HeroForge. I can only hope this is the future of the hobby where you can custom design your miniatures and have them printed. I don't think game manufacturers have anything to worry about in the short term. Each miniature cost me roughly $30 USD and two of them came with imperfections (warped pistol, warped warhammer and a giant crease in a shield). I had the option to buy in bronze but that would have cost roughly $100 USD per miniature. For one off miniatures not a problem but if you want to buy armies in bulk…

Now if I could only custom design separate heads for conversion…

I love how GW was suing for copyright when they were the biggest theives.

Eldar (elves), Orks (orcs), Squats (dwarves), Ogryn (Ogres), and the hobbit scouts, all stolen from Tolkin or classic myths.
Space marines were classic Heinlin Starship troopers.
Tyranids were aliens
Tau are Jap Aname
Necron are terminators
Most early Imperial Guard artwork was moderenized Napoleonic units. Mainly Russian Napoleonics (Flags were the givaway)
Chaos is about the only original thought they had.

They stole from all sorts of sources and tried to claim it as theirs.

Never respected them for that and never will.

GW has been influenced by many science fiction and fantasy authors. Works such as The Foundation series, The Deathworld trilogy, Dune, Aliens, and Terminator are all mined for ideas in various GW publications. However, "influenced by" is a far cry from "theft."

Shadowcat, you must have no respect for most authors, roleplaying and wargames companies based on your criteria for "theft."

I only consider it theft when they use a bucketful of lawers to claim such ideas are their property alone and sue others who also use it.

Take Terminator or aliens, they steal the basic design of the figs create a new history that fits their world, then call in the lawers to defend their "right" to such images. I remember back in the day when FASA took 12 Jap Robotech images and made battlemechs out of them. After the lawsuits cleared they had to pull the images and replace them with new designs (Stinger, wasp, warhammer, maruder, rifleman, crusader…to name a few. They lost and had to replace the images. GW Claims the images are theirs and use lawers to back it up. Look at a terminator and a rank and file necron, or tau figs and appleseed or ghost in a shell type images. I have no issues with them reusing the images, I have serious issues with them claiming it is their property though.

Well the threats of lawsuits only worked up to when they took Chapterhouse to court.

Sure they got $25,000 USD from Chapterhouse but they lost on the most important things.

Plus the issue about "Spot the Space Marine"

GW got smacked down on that one.

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The Chapterhouse Lawsuit led GW to rename quite a few things since by renaming them they could Trademark protect them.

So if someone can design their own miniatures and print them out on a 3D printer then great for them.

I would use a 3D printer for creating terrain pieces.

Shadowcat: I'll not get hung up on your ridiculous definition of theft, so we'll just ignore it and move on.

Regarding theft vs influenced by, there is a difference between straight up copying something and being influenced by it. A Necron warrior vaguely resembled a Terminator endoskeleton. Also, they both vaguely resemble a human skeleton. A far cry from theft.

Tyranids, Aliens, Zerg, Garthim from Dark Crystal are all biomechanical chitinous scary monster types that vaguely resemble each other. Again, hardly theft.

Tau are in the anime style. Doing something in a particular aesthetic style is not theft.

Necrons, Tau, Tyranids are all property of GW. They are different from any other property enough to be considered separate entities.

Mithmee, for once we can both agree on something. GW's legal department bit off more than it could chew, and exposed just how ramshackle GW's IP dept was behind the scenes. The long-running thread covering it on Dakka Dakka was a laugh riot.

Renaming everything so they could trademark it, and releasing only models they have published rules for was a smart play in response to the ruling.

I have a home printer. I print most of my models, some I do the CADDS for and some I pay for a joint ownership master. I get the CADDS model for my own use but it also goes on sale at a Shapeways store. Will everybody buy one? Not sure.

Certainly the trade mags say there are better alternatives to production if you want 5000 or more. Cast can be good but very few are. Only decent casting I have seen recently is Dropzone Commnder. Best castings ever but not my "thing". Hobby shops have gone in the UK except for GW and they are to be fair more than just a model store.

we recon we have had our moneys worth out of the printer. Raw material for a 1/144 model is about 20 pence. If you want a lot of models of a type than you soon get the cost of the CADD Model back and start paying off the cost of a printer. Good cast 1/144 can now cost upwards of £10.00 GBP each for a tank. The hobby will change as it is already with the rise of plastics.

I'd rather game than paint, so, yep, count me in!

3D printing will also reduce shipping costs -- because there's no shipping! I'm currently reading the VAT thread on TMP, and Dakkanauts from AUS regularly tell us how much money they're paying for shipping alone on KS.

Plastic injection molding technology should improve, possibly making plastic injection still cheaper than 3D printing. Or at least the miniature casting of choice for miniature boardgames. Conversely, 3D printing may make some boardgames easier to sell -- the boardgame comes with cardboard tokens, and the customer prints the miniatures.

Finally, 3D printing will (and already does) allow the customer to make the miniature he wants. This probably isn't important with massive armies of miniatures, or boardgames, but, for RPG'ers, they can now make the exact miniature of their PC, even as their PC progresses and changes through the campaign.

3D printing may always be a small market. Injection molding is great but the cost of the molds is enormous and you need to sell 10's of thousands to get a profit.

Take for instance the recent modern Russian engineering vehicle we commissioned in 1/144 scale. Most folk will only ever want say 2 at most so an injection molded run would be unthinkable. For a modest fee we got shared rights to the CADDS model and had the models printed at Shapeways. That particular model was well beyond the capability of an extrusion machine like our Replicator 2.

There is a trend to CADDS sculpting of masters as they are more "durable". you can get a new master by simply printing another, so problems with masters deteriorating are eliminated.

None of these will compete price wise with Airfix that print probably millions of figures.

I hope we can all agree that like the music industry, the gaming industry is going to have to re-invent the marketing wheel due to new technology.

Remember, the lesson learned with GW: Respect the limits of your target demographics. Right now, teens that should be getting hooked on gaming are essentially priced out of it. The gaming industry has to change and embrace new technology as well as court franchises like Spartan did with HALO.

Back to music. I can still bootleg MP3's. I can still buy a CD and rip it, post the rips to a FTP server etc. I don't. Why? Because it's easier to pay 99c for the song I want on Itunes. If the song is good, I'll pay it, even though for a little more effort I can find a torrent or whatever get it for free.

Millenials are lazy. They don't want to read the rules. They don't want to paint or model or anything that doesn't resemble instant gratification. It's too late for them, but now we're working on the new generation. Pay $20 USD for the blueprints to build an entire army? Hell ya. Remember, the average L-User isn't going to learn CAD. It's elitist to think that all the upcoming crop of future gamers are going to search out the free schemas. They're not. Out of all the kids I know, only ONE still hunts down bootleg torrents of video games. The rest pre-order crap like Mass Effect Andromeda sight unseen for $60. USD

I saw a couple games out there that your character sheet is basically a phone App. Everyone has a phone/tablet these days and I hope the gaming industry takes more use out of it. Mathematical equations that used to be too complicated to keep track of in almost every PNP RPG character sheet, can now be accomplished because every player essentially has a computer at the table. Remember 'Chartmaster'? Those type of games were way cool, but cumbersome to play. We no longer need to sacrifice realism for playability.

This is actually a golden time for someone to pioneer the new landscape business model for tabletop gaming.

I print many things some for others.
ATM the printers to do 28mm minis is about 5k, the resin 100 plus a liter.
To do it fast 15k.

So it will still be a bit.

Now terrain is another matter, I can do great pipe sections and buildings with my printer.

After painting they look good.

It takes about 9 hours to do a 3x4 inch part.
Depending on the model.

But my printer is FDM.

Like my laser cutter it is slow, but is great for proto and small batches.

The cheapest I have found that can do minis is the B9 Creator, designed to do jewelry.

One day we may get there but there are a few tech hurdles slowing us.

Once they are overcome yes a resin printer should be about 1k, and the resin will drop as it will be massed produced.

The great thing is you can design wonderful stuff and then have it made by others.
To be honest avoid ShapeWays, the over charge for the detail. For testing work find a 3d hub you can trust then use another company for masters.

As it is still cheaper to do molds than print everything.