"Is Adkins right about this?" Topic

In the Waterloo Companion Adkins says that the KGL battalions were all weak (which agrees with what I've read – 400ish men apiece vs 600 to 700 for the British battalions). He also says that they only had 6 companies per battalion versus 10 for the British.

I've never heard of the KGL as being organised on other than British lines, i.e. 10 companies per battalion. Is the 6 company figure correct or was it simply that the KGL battalions were weak because they had only 6 of the 10 companies present?

Separately, re the Guard Grenadier and Guard Chasseur regiments, he says they had four companies per battalion. I have it in my head that they had eight. What was the actual number, anyone know?

My understanding was that before the Waterloo campaign, KGL units sent "spare" officers and NCOs to stiffen Hanoverian units, and re-organised as just six companies.

I believe Adkin is right. According to 'Napoleonic Armies – A Wargamer's Campaign Directory 1805-15' by Ray Johnson, at the start of the Waterloo campaign "each (Hannoverian) battalion was increased by 2 companies taken from the KGL battalions. As each KGL battalion lost 4 companies, all battalions now contained 6 companies of 120-160 men each".

In the second sentence when he says "all battalions" I take it to mean both KGL and Hannoverian.

As far as I am aware the field battalions of the Guard Grenadier and Chasseur regiments always had four companies per battalion.

Here is the order: link

good question and good answer!

the Guard Grenadier and Guard Chasseur regiments, he says they had four companies per battalion. I have it in my head that they had eight. What was the actual number, anyone know?

The Decree of 29 July 1804 mandated eight companies fore the Grenadiers and eight for the Chasseurs per regiment (one each). There were two battalions per regiment plus a battalion of velites.

Each company was composed of 3 officers, 5 NCOs, 1 fourrier, 8 corporals, 2 sapeurs, 2 drummers, and 80 grenadiers.

The velite companies were composed of 2 officers, 5 NCOs, 1 fourrier, 8 corporals, 2 drummers, and 172 velites.

In December of 1806 the two velite battalions were converted into the Fusiliers-Grenadiers and the Fusiliers-Chasseurs.

By a Decree of 15 April 1806 changed the organization of the regiments to four battalions of grenadiers and chasseurs each of four companies. Company strength was increased to 120, and there were now two regiments each of grenadiers and chasseurs. The velites were reorganized into two battalions.

On 1 October 1808 by Imperial Decree, the 2d regiments of grenadiers and chasseurs were abolished. The eight company organization for the regiments was restored, two battalions per regiment with a strength of 2,000 all ranks per regiment.

For 1815 the 8 Old Guard regiments of grenadiers and chasseurs were organized at two battalions each, with each company having a strength of between 150 and 200.

The source is La Garde Imperiale (1804-1815) by L Fallou.

On 1 October 1801…

Kevin, is this date correct?

Excellent stuff, many thanks to all, especially SJD and Brechtel.

So the KGL thing appears to be Waterloo-related. On the Guard issue, clearly I was remembering the 8-company idea of 1804 but misrememberinbg that this was across a 2-battalion regiment.

Kevin, is this date correct?

No, it should be '1808' and I have corrected that above. Good catch and thank you.

The following is a footnote on page 323 of Volume II of History of the King's German Legion by N Ludlow Beamish:

'In consequence of the general inexperience of the officer and noncommissioned officers of the new levies [Hanoverian Landwehr], a proposition was made to the Hanoverian government by Sir Charles Alten, suggesting that the new raised troops be allowed to volunteer into the infantry regiments of the [King's German] legion, according to the practice of the British government with regard to the militia. The proposition was declined, and it therefore, became necessary to make another arrangement, according to which the legion battalions, then consisting each of ten companies, were formed into six companies, and the supernumerary officers and noncommissioned officers transferred for temporary duty to the Hanoverian Landwehr-chiefly to the battalions of the subsidiary corps: the captains of the legion thus removed, served as field officers; the subalterns too rank according to the dates of their commissions.-Notes of Captain Christoph Heisse. MSS.'

From this explanation it appears that the cadre from the abolished companies were sent to the Hanoverian Landwehr and not the enlisted men from the abolished companies. Apparently, they were absorbed into the remaining six companies of the Legion battalions.

People didn't know this? I paint KGL officers and NCOs in my Hanoverian Landwehr battalions command.
But Brechtel's right: ONLY the surplus officers and NCOs. No rank and file transferred. As I recall, the drastic understrength is because they'd already discharged all the miscellaneous foreigners they'd used to keep the KGL up to strength, so the men they had would have been serious long-service soldiers.

With reference to the Hanoverians at Waterloo:

As mentioned above a total of about 91 Officers and 104 Sergeants were transferred out of the 8 Line and Light K.G.L. Bns. into the Landwehr Bns. of the 3rd, 4th, 5th & 6th Hanoverian Brigades.
The K.G.L. Bns. were then reorganized into 6 Cos. each.

The Hanoverian Landwehr Bns. each received about 6 Officers and 6 Sgts. The Bns. kept their 4 Co. organization.

More info on this is contained in 'Geschichte der königlich Deutschen Legion, 1803-1816', Volume 2 p. 303-307
By Bernhard Schwertfeger
link

many thanks to all, especially SJD and Brechtel

My pleasure 4th Cuirassier. But it is beginning to sound like at least half my answer was completely wrong!

You're very welcome.

It's vaguely comforting to think that, after the mauling taken by Ompteda's brigade in particular, some of the old Peninsular KGL veterans would have survived by being present in other, less cut-about units on the day.

Indeed, and also that if you were in 3/14th Foot you were on the far right of Wellington's line, and they lost 6 killed of 640 all day. There were safe-ish places to be…

Some of the confusion about numbers of companies in the Guard Grenadier and Chasseur battalions arises from the fact they would have been operating under the 1791 Reglement which detailed eight tactical platoons. Thus in practice there were eight sub-units made up from the four administrative companies.

Allan

For the Guard infantry when they had only four large companies per battalion, they were actually divided into two platoons each for maneuver purposes.

thread hijack:

Is there any reliable decent information about the recruitment, equipment and training of the Hanoverian Army in 1815?

IIRC, the field battalions had been recruited in 1813. Were they German PoW's donated by the Russians, like the Russo-German Legion?

I am guessing that any officers from the Westphalian Army or French Army was persona non grata in Hanover after 1813 and the Landwehr units were raised by local gentry loyal to HM the King. Not sure if there was any source for veteran OR's and NCO's, aside from the KGL. I would assume that some French Army and Westphalian Army vets survived Leipzig and were available.

THE book on the Hanoverian Army of 1813-15 is 'Geschichte der königlich-hannoverschen Armee' Vol. 5. by Sichart. I'm not sure of all the info in it as I've only managed to translate some of it. But it has details of the reforming of the Hanoverian Army after 1813.
It's available on Hathi Trust – you may have access depending where you are – or by proxy:
link

"Is there any reliable decent information about the recruitment, equipment and training of the Hanoverian Army in 1815"

The Correspondance of Sir Henry Clinton in the Waterloo Campaign, two volumes, edited by Gareth Glover provides a lot of information about this

"The Correspondance of Sir Henry Clinton in the Waterloo Campaign, two volumes, edited by Gareth Glover provides a lot of information about this"

Just read that, the information on the Honnoverians is very useful, and slightly different from what is generally believed. Apparently, the KGL was not at its best in 1815, and some of the Hannoverian Landwehr battalions had become quite competent, especially after gaining the additional KGL officers.

The book in question is currently available on Kindle at a very acceptable price!

You tease me and tempt me, Messieurs!

It appears that another shake-up to accepted Napoleonic wisdom might be in the offing!

Camcleod, I attempted to read the work that you mentioned, but copyright blocks it in Canada.