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"Yom Kippur War" Topic


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Swartz55 Inactive Member05 Sep 2016 1:51 a.m. PST

So I was doing a little bit of reading on the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, and noticed that during the attack, the U.S. and the Soviet Union initiated massive resupply efforts to their respective allies, which almost got the two superpowers into a fighting war with each other. How interesting of a scenario would that be? I think the idea of the war starting, escalating and then having Arab/Soviet forces clashing with U.S./Israeli forces would be really, really cool. Which forces, for the respective sides, do you think would have arrived on scene first? for the U.S. my guess would be Army Rangers, Paratroopers or maybe the Marines, but I'm not sure about the Soviets.

Here's the Wikipedia article: link

Martin Rapier05 Sep 2016 2:32 a.m. PST

In the 1973 the most likely escalation would have not have been with US and Soviet ground forces facing off, but naval (to intercept reported shipments of Soviet nukes to Egypt) and then nuclear.

The US going to Defcon 3 worldwide was enough to stop an escalation in Soviet intervention, as they decided Egypt and Syria weren't worth fighting WW3 over.

Swartz55 Inactive Member05 Sep 2016 2:54 a.m. PST

Well, right, but we're playing pretend here :) I just want to know which would have been the first forces on the ground for each side, so I can build the scenario and play it.

gunnerphil05 Sep 2016 4:54 a.m. PST

Swartz it depends what you have available. But for US firstin would be Marines as the US had a fleet in the area. Then maybe Rangers and or Paratroopers. If doing skirmish then SF of any type.

For Soviets Naval Infantry and or Paratroops. Followed by regular divisions. Depending on how long you want your war to continue.

Swartz55 Inactive Member05 Sep 2016 5:53 a.m. PST

Sweet, thank you!

Martin Rapier05 Sep 2016 6:18 a.m. PST

Yes, the Sov intervention forces were planned around air assault divisions (in the first instance). According to your wiki page they had seven divisions earmarked for intervention.

Not sure there would be any naval infantry unless the Sovs also invaded Turkey, Iran and Iraq although supposedly some combat forces were sent by sea along with the nuclear weapons to Egypt.

The US Sixth Fleet was in the area, so US Marines to start and whatever could be flown/shipped over thereafter.

Personal logo Mardaddy Supporting Member of TMP05 Sep 2016 7:21 a.m. PST

Soviets decided early on and stridently advised Egypt NOT to attack, they would not support it, they wanted a diplomatic solution to the Sinai occupation, and pulled their men, advisors and families out in the week leading up to the initial assault.

The Syrian goal was to wipe out Israel, and they thought Egypt wanted the same Egypt fooled them in order to get a two-front war started up they really just wanted to retake the canal (hence the reason they stopped and built up defenses there instead of pressing the advantage after the initial win.)

There were still Soviet advisors and technicians on the Syrian side helping them with their AA especially (something all the Isreal-neighboring countries invested heavily in after the Six Day War.)


This what-if would need to change Egypt's goal, or initially have the Soviets come in through Syria, with Egypt joining in Johnny-come-lately restarting their attack once they saw big-time Syrian/Soviet successes in the Heights.

basileus6605 Sep 2016 7:48 a.m. PST

Soviets decided early on and stridently advised Egypt NOT to attack, they would not support it, they wanted a diplomatic solution to the Sinai occupation, and pulled their men, advisors and families out in the week leading up to the initial assault.

Wasn't Anwar el Sadat who forced the Soviet pullout? I was under the impression it had been the Egyptian leader who had cooled down the Soviet alliance with the intention of sending a subtle message to the US (and Israel) regarding the Egyptian willingness to redefine her role in the Middle East.

Personal logo Mardaddy Supporting Member of TMP05 Sep 2016 9:17 a.m. PST

From the reads I've made, Soviets were well aware of Sadat's intentions to go violent and wanted no part of it, to the point where they wanted no Soviet lives in danger and pulled out their people.

Sadat wanted them to stay, there was some hardware that the Egyptians had not completed training on before the decision to go hot, and the Soviets started pulling out as a leverage ploy keep pursuing diplomatic and we'll keep feeding you supplies and training, go hot and the gear stays in the rear unused.

And like all ploys and policies and decisions, it changed with the reality as that reality developed – The Soviets were risking the world thinking they would abandon their allies, so… shift.

Swartz55 Inactive Member05 Sep 2016 10:24 a.m. PST

I'll write up a quick draft of how I see the scenario so far. If you think there's a more historically accurate approach to get the U.S. and Soviets involved, feel free to share!

Swartz55 Inactive Member05 Sep 2016 10:24 a.m. PST

Belligerents:
Israeli Defence Force
United States Marine Corps
United States Air Force

Arab coalition
Soviet 197th Assault Ship Brigade (Black Sea Fleet)
Soviet Air Force

Swartz55 Inactive Member05 Sep 2016 10:25 a.m. PST

Scenario- U.S./ Soviet involvement after the Egyptian request for the super powers to enforce the ceasefire and their appeal to the Soviet Union for aid. The U.S. sends a response to the Egyptian government that if the Soviet Union were to intervene in the conflict, so would the United States. The U.S. moves to DEFCON 3 upon suspected Soviet Nuclear warheads being sent to Egypt, and as a response to the Soviet Union placing 7 airborne divisions on alert and deploying 40,000 infantry to the Mediterranean. The Egyptians, becoming fearful of the U.S. escalation, let their request for Soviet aid stand, which is fulfilled as the Soviet Black Sea Fleet enters the conflict. In response, the U.S. moves to DEFCON 2 and deploys the Marine Corps into the theater, soon to be followed by more forces.

Mako11 Inactive Member05 Sep 2016 11:08 a.m. PST

F-8 Crusaders were on at least one of the carriers and were slated to be transferred to the Israelis, but were waved off at the last moment, since they were no longer needed .

They were in the Med., and were to replace Israeli jet losses.

Personal logo piper909 Supporting Member of TMP05 Sep 2016 12:30 p.m. PST

"The US going to Defcon 3 worldwide was enough to stop an escalation in Soviet intervention, as they decided Egypt and Syria weren't worth fighting WW3 over."

That makes it kinda sobering, then, to realize that the US *did* feel that they were worth fighting WWII over, to stop them defeating Israel which, to be frank, was occupying lands seized from them in 1967. Anyway..

For what it's worth, I have the old SPI game Sinai, designed by James Dunnigan, and in the optional scenarios and OBs for 1973 (or a mid-70s hypothetical war) the Soviet intervention forces are two mechanized brigades, one armored brigade, and one marine brigade. The US intervention forces are two Marine brigades. No airmobile forces, curiously.

In this game, the Egyptians can't push across the Sinai too far from the canal or they move out from under their protective SAM umbrella and the Israeli air force can really punish them. Every game I've played of this turned into a stalemate at the Sinai passes, with the Egyptians unable to advance further but the Israelis unable to push them back either. The Syrians get clobbered again, however, it just takes longer than in 1967.

Martin Rapier06 Sep 2016 3:01 a.m. PST

"That makes it kinda sobering, then, to realize that the US *did* feel that they were worth fighting WWII over, to stop them defeating Israel which, to be frank, was occupying lands seized from them in 1967. Anyway.."

Umm, they certainly felt it was worth a good degree of sabre rattling over. Whether it would have come to all out war if serious Soviet forces had arrived? The Soviets certainly seemed to think it would, and all out war in the doctrine of the 1970s was nuclear.

Although as we know now, the warhead gap in 1972 was so vast (2.5:1 US superiority) we'd have probably 'won', even if the throw weights were similar.

Swartz55 Inactive Member06 Sep 2016 4:15 a.m. PST

All I can say is that I'm glad things worked out that we can pretend we had war with the Soviets, instead of doing a live-action Fallout series.

Fatman06 Sep 2016 5:14 a.m. PST

Both "Airborne" divisions were on full alert as were a number of USMC units. I believe the USSR went as far as putting air lift assets into place while move VDV units into place to be picked up. Of course this was just sabre rattling but must have sounded mighty like said sabres being drawn at the time.

Fatman

Fatman06 Sep 2016 5:20 a.m. PST

Mako11
People often ask why my Israeli forces include four F-*'s in camo with orange ID triangles. Whole squadrons of F-4's and A-4's had already been sent to the IDF from bases as far away as the UK in the case of the F-4.

Fatman

Swartz55 Inactive Member06 Sep 2016 9:00 a.m. PST

I'm planning on having each side being 2,000-2,2000 points, using FFT3. Here's the Marines army list:

Marine A Amphibious Unit (Infantry Battalion)- 1,000pts
2 81mm Mortars- 36pts
2 Jeeps with 106mm Recoilless Rifle- 74pts
1 Marine Rifle Stand – 26 pts
1 Marine Heavy Machine Gun stand- 16 pts
1 Tank Company (3x M48A3) 477pts
1 AT Company (3x Jeep w/ 106mm RR)- 111pts
1 AA Platoon (1x Redeye) 36pts + 1pt
1 AMTRAC unit (1x AAV-7A1)- 29pts
1 Direct Support Artillery Battalions (3x M114 155m Howitzer [off table]) + 141pts
1 A6A Intruder w/ 2 Heavy Cluster Bombs- 152 pts

Personal logo Mardaddy Supporting Member of TMP06 Sep 2016 1:55 p.m. PST

To second piper909 and the SPI game, the Egyptian experience in the Six Day War made them MASSIVELY afraid to move anything without multiple layers of AA cover, and only reinforced their desire to, "only take the canal."

Swartz55 Inactive Member08 Sep 2016 1:49 a.m. PST

Here's what I've got written up on the scenario so far, if anyone wants to check it out:

link

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