"GW Earnings Report is Out" Topic

"I have gone old school and picked up a lot of the Rogue Trader figures"- Miniature Review

So have I, back to when the game was fun and captured my imagination. I use a mix of old and new miniatures. I even created an Abdul Goldberg miniature on order from HeroForge! He should arrive in a couple of weeks.

"I saw MANY others pack it in when they realized they could not compete. I have walked into hobby shops and watched new players being butchered not because of a lack of skill but because their opponents brought more tactical choices to the table.

I have seen even more walk by a GW table and say that looks cool until they realize they can't afford to play."

So your anecdotal evidence is that people don't play GW games because they are too expensive?

It would seem that the counter to that is that GW is still the most successful miniature business around.

There are others that are doing well but no other company has 100 of their own retail stores.

I'd guess that many have found it a sustainable hobby.

I started playing in college. I had almost no money, a scholarship of $750 USD a semester is what I had to eat and play on. I also had an expensive comic book habit at the time. We still managed to play some fun games of 40K.

Yes, GW products cost money but so do all miniature games. Yes the person with more money is going to have more tactical options but with the way the new products are being sold a reasonable beginning investment of $250 USD is enough to get you a competitive army.

If you can't afford it all at once there are other ways to get into it. They have just introduced Kill Team again. You can always play with fewer points to start.

But you can enter a tournament with a 2000 pt army for about $250 USD in 40K.

You could get one for cheaper if you have a friend willing to split the starter sets with you.

So you're saying that because you had a very high win to loss ration there was balance?

Well I won because I knew how to play the army, which was more than important back than.

I also usually only had like 6-10 miniatures left on the table, so the games were close.

I also had a game back then with my Eldar were my opponent drew the Virus Card.

He wipe out around half my army with it.

I lost that game due to the gaming ending on the die roll.

If we had gone one more turn I would have won.

The reason knowing your army back was important. Today it is can you put the three flyers, three heavies, Elites and bare minimum troops.

My armies were built on running lots of Troops.

You do that today you can expect not to win very many games.

I was struggling to support a wife and two children.

Dragon,

Same here, wife and two daughters and like you I had to build up my armies over time. Oh and like Pictor I also had a huge comic book habit (18 long boxes out in the garage filled with comics).

First Harlequins, then Eldar & Marines, Imperial Guard (which has nearly 200 miniatures in it) and Orks, which also has lots of foot troops.

Actually I have hardly any vehicles in my armies.

I continued to play with later additions and continued to add to my army but it stopped being fun.

Yup, when they changed the rules and screwed over the Eldar by dropping the range of Shuriken Catapults and took away their Las Guns GW started to take the fun out of the game.

I have seen even more walk by a GW table and say that looks cool until they realize they can't afford to play.

Which was the same thing that happened to WFB and drove GW to have a End of Time for it.

Gee, and now 40K is now having it own End of Times.

With GW track record that does not bode well for 40K.

So your anecdotal evidence is that people don't play GW games because they are too expensive?

It would seem that the counter to that is that GW is still the most successful miniature business around.

There are others that are doing well but no other company has 100 of their own retail stores.

Yes it is too expensive to play now days.

For someone to buy what I have for Imperial Guard they would have to spend around $600 USD – $700 USD and that is without any of the over price large models.

Oh and that is for a 2000 force.

I will also state that they are not the most successful miniatures company out there right now.

Fantasy Flight Games (which just lost all of their GW licenses) is more than likely killing GW in sales of their games.

Plus this thread is all about GW's Earnings and if their sales/revenues over the last year are down.

Oh yes they have lots of stores that only have one sale person in them and in many cases hardly any product because GW really wants to only be selling online.

There is only one GW store but there were two before.

They only opened the one that is still around because of the FLGS that is within 5-10 drive.

How long it will last? Well that is a very good question.

But you can enter a tournament with a 2000 point army for about $250 USD USD in 40K.

What army?

Because you are not getting much for $250. USD

It sure not Eldar since one ten men squad is $70 USD but they are less than 200 points.

So I really would like to know what army, since I know how much GW figures cost.

The Army Codex will take up more than 20% of that $250 USD so that only leaves less than $200 USD to buy 2000 points of troops.

"Because you are not getting much for $250. USD USD"- Mithmee

Mithmee for the win, you don't even get to field a combined arms force.

You can pick up some very competitive armies on the used market for under $300 USD already assembled and often painted.

This army went for $290 USD

This army went for $160 USD

Sure if you buy new it's going to cost a lot more, but GW has such a good secondary market that you don't have to buy everything new.

Chaos Space Marines

This army went for $289 USD

Sure from Ebay but the thing is they need to be 2000 points worth of units.

Thing is none of those come close to 2000 points though the last has the most points and could get to 2000 if you tweek out every single squad leader and character.

But it still not $250 USD and if you brought those miniatures from GW the vehicles alone are more than $200. USD Then each squad of those marines cost over $40 USD and I count around 5 squads in that force so that is another $200 USD plus.

We haven't even gotten to characters yet and the remaining stuff but that force would is in the $500 USD – $600 USD range.

Most of the games I see played are under 2000 points. Usually 1000 to 1500 points. The exception being Tournaments.

"What army?

Because you are not getting much for $250. USD USD"

Space Marines, specifically Dark Angels.

"Mithmee for the win, you don't even get to field a combined arms force."

Really, because he is wrong and so are you.

If you split the Dark Vengeance set with a friend you are spending $55 USD retail price.

Then get the Betrayal at Calth boxed set. Field with Pride of the Legion.

If you don't use the Dark Angel commander from the Dark Vengeance set you still come out at about 2005 pts.

You get 4 units of marines, 2 units of terminators, a dreadnought, 3 bikes and 3 characters in that army (one captain, one librarian and a chaplain.)

Over 2000 pts, $205 USD and a combined arms army.

That is even going light on that list for options. I think you could get it up to close to 2500 pts. And it would be a good list. It doesn't have any tanks in it but if you drop the Dark Vengeance set and get one of the Start Collecting boxes you could get a tank and it would be $235 USD, but would be slightly fewer points.

You even have options. You could field your four squads as veterans, tactical marines or devastators. You can field either a terminator armoured captain or a power armoured captain.

You are missing the Dark Angels Codex along with the Space Marine Codex.

But you are fielding basically a Infantry force that is mostly just Standard Marines.

My type of force normally but in todays game environment killing Toughness 4/AP 3 Marines is not hard to do and quite frankly very easy to do.

But to get to that 2000 points you still have to pull in quite a few upgrades to your units.

Now do this for the following Armies:

Orks
Imperial Guard
Eldar

No one is saying you can do it with every army.

If you want to play 40K you can play it for about $250. USD You don't need the Dark Angel codex as you can use them as regular marines if you want.

"But to get to that 2000 points you still have to pull in quite a few upgrades to your units."

Yeah, the exact kind of upgrades you were saying were so great about Rogue Trader and balancing forces out.

Your argument is that it is too expensive to get into GW games.

It isn't. I just showed you that you can put a 2500pt 40K force together for about $250. USD

"My type of force normally but in todays game environment killing Toughness 4/AP 3 Marines is not hard to do and quite frankly very easy to do."

But not as easy as proving you wrong apparently.

Agree, but you also need to put together an army list at 2000 points that has a chance to win against most opponents.

Thing is Standard Marines die just as quick today as they did 20 years ago.

Toughness 4/AP 3 only goes so far but players tend to build their lists to kill MEQ.

So even if you put 40 Marines on the tabletop and with what individuals have on the tabletop in the way of terrain (I.E. hardly any) they will not be live for long.

Plus they tend to lack the punch to take out high armor targets. Sure you can give them a Melta Gun and Las Cannon.

But the Melta Gun is a up close weapon and I have mention already what happens to Marines that can be seen. The Las Cannon puts limits on what your Marines can do since if you shoot they cannot move and if they move you cannot shoot the Las Cannon.

Which is why I do not give my Standard Marine Squads a Heavy Weapon and go with the dual Special weapons since I want them moving. Because moving means staying alive for just a bit longer.

Which is also why I arm my Imperial Guard with Grenade Launchers, good range and choice between Krak & Frag Grenades. You can get a lot of Grenade Launchers in a 2000 point Imperial Guard force (mine has around 20).

killing Toughness 4/AP 3 Marines is not hard to do and quite frankly very easy to do."

But not as easy as proving you wrong apparently.

Really!

Imperial Guard

Leman Russ's with their Pie Plates Str 8/AP 3 ignores cover – kills Marines dead and I see how most individuals like to have every squad member touching base to base, so kills lots of Marines dead.

Imperial Guard Standard Las Gun: Sure just a Str 3/AP 5 weapon but

I have around 150 in my 2000 point Imperial Guard force.

While in the fluff Space Marines are hard to kill it is not the same on the tabletop.

Plus since a lot of players tend to play Marines other players have learned how to kill them and have the units/weapons to do so.

So I am not wrong about being able to kill Marines.

GW nerfed Krak Grenades from AP3 to AP4 just because they were Marine killers (Still are but the Marines do get their Armor Save now).

But there are still a lot of AP 2 weapons and AP 3 weapons out there, plus lots of Power Weapons.

I think if they decide to move 40k to an AoS model, a lot of these complaints will be moot. It will be a lot cheaper to get into, units will be more balanced, and they will probably give space marines 2-3 wounds and make them a little closer to how they are portrayed in the fiction.

You could be right since 40K is under going its own End of Times.

"Agree, but you also need to put together an army list at 2000 points that has a chance to win against most opponents."

There are 10 terminators in that list, plus a terminator captain or possibly two depending on which route you take.

You can play the game with a 2000 pt army for about $250. USD

The person that placed 3rd in the Las Vegas this year had a force consisting almost solely of power armoured marines and lightly armoured transports.

Terminators are harder to kill.

But I did mention AP 2 weapons and Power Weapons.

Plus there are only Ten of them and well with the amount of dice that players get to roll in a turn they will roll "1's" for their saves.

I guess you didn't notice that an army made up almost entirely of power armour T4/3+ save guys came in third at a pretty big tournament.

I think this is starting to look like one of those times where you have no idea what you are talking about, as usual.

Who came in 1st? and did the missions/objectives help this individual wins games?

Loss a game because my opponent who only had a few units/models left on the board moved a vehicle onto the objective and when we rolled the dice the game ended.

He got the victory and I got the loss even though I had nearly slaughtered his whole force.

Actually jumping onto Objectives at the last moment became a tactic that many players counted on to win games or at least contest objectives.

But back to killing Terminators, I know how many dice are being rolled and what the likely outcome will be of those dice.

They will roll those ones and since they usually come in small squads they are as hard to kill as you think they are.

Surely the whole problem here is that too many people have forgotten what a 'game' is.

For the benefit of those who need a reminder, a game can be defined as: "an agreement between 2 players to have fun (whilst keeping their clothes on.)"

The "buy to win" mentality is only ever going to take over when gamers start to think they can't enjoy if they're not winning. People like that really ought to find themselves a big Spanish soccer team to support instead.

What is a shame is that GW ever responded to this mentality. ie Army lists based on an ill-considered points system; sterile missions; and the loss of narrative-driven scenarios in White Dwarf, etc.

The only answer is to shun the beardy gamers and their cheesy armies, and tell the competitions to take a hike.

Tbh, if you know the game well enough, have a reasonable imagination and get to know the people you play with, it's entirely possible to ditch the points-based selection altogether and field unbalanced forces which give a balanced game by using a 'feel' for the capabilities of the units and the player who leads them. (At least that's my excuse for my run of defeats to my 9 year old grandson.)

I think a lot of gamers of all genres need to be locked in a room and made to write out "It's only a game" 1000 times whilst being beaten abut the head with a well-used copy of 'Panzer Pranks'.

Dragon Gunner,
Sorry to here you played with a bunch of WAAC prats.
I had a close friend who played in the same manner but often lost because he was too busy trying to annihilate my forces with his cheese-dick army chooses and failed to notice I actually took the objectives of the game.
I have since grown away from playing people with that mindset and am no longer friends with him or anyone else like him.
Those folks could suck the fun out anything.

It is one thing to work at taking the Objectives but games need to be decided on more than just rushing in and taking the objectives on the last turn of the game.

But yes GW brought about the era of the WAACer's and Min/Max.

With the Force Composition Chart they made only two troop choices were needed but you could Max out Elites, Fast Attack and Heavies with three choices.

That is what players did and ran with the bare minimum in troops so that they can Max out the other areas.

" rushing in and taking the objectives on the last turn of the game"- Mithmee

We had guys that would hold a small "deep strike" capable unit in reserve. On the last turn of the game they would drop it onto objectives to have them contested…

"It is one thing to work at taking the Objectives but games need to be decided on more than just rushing in and taking the objectives on the last turn of the game."

Why? Sometimes in war it doesn't matter if you get wiped out as long as you hold out for a given amount of time or the enemy focuses enough stuff on you or you hold a point at a certain time.

"Who came in 1st?"

Eldar.

" and did the missions/objectives help this individual wins games?"

What difference does it make. You're saying you can't win with that army. You can. You're just wrong about that. In competition games, the army you say doesn't stand a chance won third place.

It really shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Maybe, and it is unlikely, that you did know what you were talking about with this stuff more than a decade ago but you are pretty clearly not in touch with what is going on now.

I mean look at what you say here:

"That is what players did and ran with the bare minimum in troops so that they can Max out the other areas."

The guy that won 3rd place with those space marines had nearly all troop choices in his army.

In 3.5 edition the space marine tactical squad was about the most dominant formation on the table. Even in 3rd straight up it was pretty formidable. Challenges have limited its utility since they were introduced, but the regular tactical marine squad has a lot of uses on the table still.

As this player showed.

"With the Force Composition Chart they made only two troop choices were needed but you could Max out Elites, Fast Attack and Heavies with three choices."

Which was a huge improvement over 2nd edition where you had to take 0 points of what is considered troops, you could field a 2000 pt space marine army with something like 11 figures.

Or maybe it was 1500 pts. I don't remember now.

"Loss (sic) a game because my opponent who only had a few units/models left on the board moved a vehicle onto the objective and when we rolled the dice the game ended.
"

No, you lost the game because you didn't pay attention closely enough to the victory conditions. You took your eye off the ball and suffered for it.

"Tbh, if you know the game well enough, have a reasonable imagination and get to know the people you play with, it's entirely possible to ditch the points-based selection altogether and field unbalanced forces which give a balanced game by using a 'feel' for the capabilities of the units and the player who leads them."

This is what we do. We don't use points for any of our games any more. It is all story driven. This is what GW tried to do with AoS and the community didn't like it.

Which was a huge improvement over 2nd edition where you had to take 0 points of what is considered troops, you could field a 2000 point space marine army with something like 11 figures.

Quite right and it was 1500 points and they would be Space Wolves Terminators who back then would not have lasted long at all. Had a Space Wolf player try this once but yes it was legal back then. Actually 11 models all armed the same with Missiles and Assault Cannon. Lots of fire power but it was only 11 models.

There is a reason why Marine players stop using Terminator for a long while and why many other players stop using units that nearly everyone had in their armies.

That reason being that they cost to much and died to quickly thus fielding them was only giving your opponent points.

But funny I never recall anyone not running Troops back in 2nd Edition and I was able to field a decent force that was mostly troops.

Still can today, oh and I never said that they couldn't win only that it is far tougher than you think, because even today Marines die very easy.

When you know how to design your force to deal with AP3 figures.

Oh and it Objectives matter a lot since there are missions that are Objective driven and can win you the game even when you shouldn't.

No, you lost the game because you didn't pay attention closely enough to the victory conditions.

No I lost because of GW putting in a rule that Dark Angels could not move forward if were enemy models within a certain distance.

That rule really did screw over a lot of Dark Angel players.

So I could not move forward even if I wanted to. Plus my opponent took a gamble and moved his last vehicle onto the Objective knowing that we would have to roll to see if the game continued.

It just sounds like you didn't know what you were doing.

Did you not know that Dark Angels couldn't move forward if enemy were in a certain distance before you started to play?

It is the poor carpenter indeed that blames his tools.

They weren't Space Wolf terminators. I think they were Dark Angel terminators and they had some banner that made it impossible, or almost impossible, for things to charge them.

No they were Space Wolves Terminators I would know this because I was playing during that time 20+ years ago.

Did you not know that Dark Angels couldn't move forward if enemy were in a certain distance before you started to play?

I did, but it was GW who put that stupid rule into place. I had times where if I could charge into the enemy I would have turned a battle. GW is well known for coming up with some really stupid rules at times.

Thing is your opponents knew that rule as well and that rule was a big reason why Dark Angels were not that common since that one rule hamper them big time.

Oh and that force of mine wiped out nearly 90% of the opposing force.

Mithmee, it sounds like you once again do not know what you are talking about.

Missions in the current version of 40k are won by victory points scored by controlling objectives on EACH turn, not at the end of the game.

Eldar are kind of cheesed out right now, but the other premier army in tournament 40k is the space marine Gladius formation. This features a LOT of troop choices in transports of some kind. Basically its an entire company of space marines in power armor, and its no joke.

So wrong again, as usual.

The Marines in Transports is not new and has been around for sometime now.

Rhino Rush

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Razorback Spam

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Mithmee, it sounds like you once again do not know what you are talking about.

I know what I am talking about but you are focused on the current Edition and I was talking about 16+ years ago.

No you don't know what you are talking about. You're making statements about the current rules, which you obviously don't know.

Stuff like "T3/3+ save guys can't survive on the table top" and "you win by sweeping up on objectives at the last minute."

You have no idea what you are talking about. Like all the crap you talk about AoS calling it "herohammer" and so forth.

Just pure ignorance really.

And they weren't space wolf terminators. They were Dark Angels or Blood angels because my group didn't have the 2nd edition SW codex but the army I was playing against came out of the Angels of Blood codex. My friend painted his figs black with a dry brush of metal so he could use them as either.

You don't even know what you are talking about when you are talking about the stuff you claim to know about. I don't doubt that the SW termies were tough too but you don't know what my group was doing.

Space Wolves were the only Chapter who could field individual Terminators oh and could be armed with both a Cyclone Missile Launcher and Assault Cannon.

Oh and this was back in the early 1990's.

I do know that it was not Dark Angels since that is the Chapter that I played and they never could just field 11 Terminators for 1500 points.

Oh and it T4/3+ save guys and there are quite a few weapons that kills them dead.

There is a reason why a lot of Eldar players field Fire Dragons – they kill Marines with ease.

Imperial Guard have Leman Russ's, which also kill Marines with ease.

They also can field quite a few Plasma Guns/Melta Guns, both which kill Marines as well.

Krak Grenades were once Str 6/AP 3 but GW change them to be Str 6/AP 4 because they killed Marines.

Which is why they also Nerf'd the Eldar Catapults range because they were too good at killing Marines back when they had that -2 save and before they move everything to have an AP.

They gave Eldar a bone when they gave 6 inches back to the Dire Avengers Shuriken Catapults because there was no reason to put them into your army with only a 12" range weapon. (I.E. no one was buying them back then).

But then they screwed Eldar players over by doubling the price of Dire Avengers a few years ago since they were the standard Troop choice that most Eldar would use.

Oh and AoS is just Fantasy with Space Marines and is part of the reason why GW revenues have dropped over the last year.

True I might not be playing now but that is more due to GW inability to put balance in and basically trashing the rules so that the game is now nothing but rolling a brunch of dice.

I more than likely have more GW miniatures than most who post here since I brought my first miniatures back in 1989 and by a decade later I had around 8 armies for WFB & 40K. and I will not even count any of my Epic miniatures.

Now with GW ending their license with Fantasy Flight Games and Fantasy Flight bringing their own Fantasy tabletop game out we will see what the impact will be next year.

Plus we have this 40K Ends of Times going on as well and well we all know how the WFB Ends of Times ended.

"Oh and AoS is just Fantasy with Space Marines and is part of the reason why GW revenues have dropped over the last year."

This is not true. AoS outsold WHFB over the last few years. Switching to AoS from fantasy increased revenues from that product line.

Still you have no clue.

All I know is that I love 40K--the game system and the figs--and I'm going to keep buying their stuff.

I think management has made some better decisions over the past year, and I see hope for the future.

As to the stores, I love the stores. My local manager has attracted a lot of gamers to the store to play and paint. That energizes their interest in the hobby so they buy more. I'm in there at least once a week, if only to pick up a bit of paint.

I think, if the stores break even, it's not a bad business decision. It's like the magazine. It revs up the customer base with ideas and inspiration. I've got a subscription to White Dwarf, and I know I'm basically paying for their advertising. Happy to do it.

GW isn't perfect. But it provides me the product I want. If it can do that to enough people, the company will do fine.

Well … bottom line … their bottom line is to make a profit. Which appears they usually do.

And to add. I'm not a GW 40K fan, but regardless … they make a profit, whether I or anyone here is a fan or not.

AoS outsold WHFB over the last few years.

Excuse me but didn't AoS come out after they killed off WFB? As in coming out last year, as in 2015.

So just how is one year become "over the last few years"?

I think Pictor you are the one who needs to get a clue since what you stated is an out and out lie.

Switching to AoS from fantasy increased revenues from that product line.

Really! Then care to explain why their revenues are down along with their profit from those revenues?

It is in their Earnings Report.

If it wasn't the Warhammer Total War computer game (I.E. WFB) they would have far less Revenues.

But GW partnership with Fantasy Flight is ending and that will impact their Revenues for next year.

You didn't read the earnings report.

You don't know what it says. You are going off of what someone told you it said.

You didn't even read where I quoted from it that AoS sales in the last year were better than the previous few years of WHFB.

It is in this very thread. You didn't even read this thread or if you did you didn't comprehend it.

You predicted doom for AoS and you were wrong. From 2015 to 2016 AoS sold better than WHFB did from 2014 to 2015.

I would imagine that revenues are possibly down because WH40K didn't sell as well over the previous years. Since 40K outsells the fantasy line significantly that a drop in sales from that would hurt the overall bottom line. This is pretty basic stuff.

You're wrong again. Apparently you never tire of that.

Best time EVER for a beginner to get into Fantasy (AoS) with the Start Collecting Boxes and General's Handbook scenarios!!!

Best time EVER to start 40k with the Start Collecting boxes and new Kill Team rules!

GW has made great decisions over the last year, which make its games more accessible and attractive to beginners!

In addition, I think there are more non-GW miniatures games available than ever before! If you don't like GW there is a wide selection available to choose from, plus ever increasing choices in terrain and miniatures due to kickstarters!

Its a great time to be a miniatures gamer!

Mithmee, whats your excuse??!?!?!?

Mithmee, whats your excuse??!?!?!?

I already have:

A Dark Angels Army

A Guardians of the Covenant Army

An Eldar Army

An Imperial Guard Army

A Harlequin Army

An Ork Army

Also once I get my stuff from Mantic's Games Warpath kickstarter A Forge Fathers/Squat Army

So somewhere in the range of 800+ models and probably double that for WFB.

Why do I need to buy more?

Plus at the moment I am working on getting more Zombicide: Black Plague miniatures.

Waiting on these to arrive:

Single piece instead of multi-piece miniatures Undead Archers can you them for Zombicide: Black Plague or for WFB, KOW, etc…

Have one box of these and might consider maybe 2 more.

So the decision is that you can either spend %50+ dollars and get ten or in some case less figures from GW or spend the same amount and get forty figures.

Here you go Mithmee. Why spend around $50 USD to get 40 undead figures when you can spend around $50 USD and get 600 undead figures? All that matters is the number of figures you get for the price, right?

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Except there is the matter of size and those bag of zombies are just a bit short.

Mithmee… those skeleton archers look pretty cool. What scale are they? I need some for my Warhammer undead army and GW doesn't sell skeleton archers anymore… as far as I am aware.

28mm and if you mount them on a base and they size up fairly well against GW miniatures.

Plus they are $25 USD for a box of 21 before any tax.

My two boxes arrived yesterday so 42 miniature Undead Archers with armor.

Mithmee… you convinced me to take the plunge. I ordered a box of the skeleton archers this weekend. Thanks for the info.

You are welcome.