"GW Earnings Report is Out" Topic

No, you don't.

You prove it again and again.

You compare GW retail prices with tax to prices of other games from discounters without tax.

So GW is not selling those games at those prices?

Oh and just where in this thread did I say anything about other games from discounters without tax?

Because I know what I have posted and I most posted no such thing.

What I did post were that individuals are not playing AoS or 40K but are playing other games.

I also posted about Fantasy Flight new Fantasy game that will be out soon.

But games from discounters without tax not is this thread.

But here is something for you.

I picked this up a couple of weeks ago at the FLGS.

Price $100 USD with tax almost $110. USD

No discounter and with tax.

Oh and a far better game than any of the above GW games and will get more support than those GW games.

You didn't post about the Warmaster thing on this thread either, you posted it on another thread. Just like you were comparing the retail price with tax of GW stuff to the price of Frostgrave stuff on Amazon.

You aren't real clear on your own comments, much less a companies decisions, direction or products. By the Socratic definition you are a genius.

"To bad that going that way would mean forking over around $352 USD USD USD USD – $440. USD USD USD USD"- Mithmee"

This is not right. You can get two Betrayal at Calth sets for $300 USD USD which has 60 marines, 10 terminators and 2 dreadnoughts plus 2x 2 characters. Just one set would be a decent sized force, enough to start and that would only be $150. USD USD

You can't get anything you want for cheap, but the barrier to getting into GW games is not that high.

Thing is you will only be getting Marines with those two sets and only Marines.

Sure it less than the $352 USD but not by much.

Oh and sure you not going to get things for cheap (unless you brought most of your GW stuff back in the early to mid 1990's).

But there are other companies out there now and they are cutting into GW profit line which this years earnings report shows.

Warlord Games:

Bolt Action

Beyond the Gates of Antares:

These along with the games I have already mentioned above are just going to cut into GW profit line because they are cheaper than GW.

@Pictors

I am done your debating style of willfully refusing to comprehend anything that has been said and keep repeating your strawman comments has earned you a stifle.

"Thing is you will only be getting Marines with those two sets and only Marines."

Yes, when you buy sets of marines you only get marines. But not just regular marines you get a dreadnought, two characters and terminators.

And your two examples are pretty poor. Sure Bolt Action is cheaper than 40K but it isn't a sci-fi game. You are once again comparing apples to oranges.

Most historical games are cheaper than fantasy/sci-fi games on a per figure basis.

And Beyond the Gates of Antares, while a very good comparison, isn't significantly cheaper. Again neglecting math at an early age has hurt you here.

The BtGoA starter set is $112. USD Dark Vengeance, the 40K starter set is $110. USD

You get 39 figures in it and if you buy it straight from Warlord you get a free boxed set with it containing about another 10 figures.

Dark Vengeance has 49 figures in it.

So they are actually about the same price.

Even if you compare the boxed sets there isn't that much difference in price.

A boxed set of Concordant strike infantry is $32 USD comes with 10 figures and 4 drones.

A similar boxed set from GW, the Tau fire warriors is $50 USD admittedly more, but you can get it in the Start Collecting set with 3 battlesuits and a leader for $85. USD

If you were to get something similar for your concordant force, say the drop troops it would be $64 USD plus a commander $10 USD it is $74 USD, cheaper but not by much.

This is only if you are getting the armies that come with plastics. The metal figures for BtGoA are more expensive.

BtGoA may cut into GW's profits because it looks like it is a good game with a neat story and a solid background but not because it is significantly cheaper.

GW will have to step up their game to compete with it and they have been doing that. BaC and the upcoming Prospero set have sold very well, shown a response to customer demand and brought a lot of people into playing 30K and buying GW stuff again.

@ Dragon Gunner

I understand what you are saying. You are arguing that you can't jump into the hobby for $100 USD or so and have a super competitive army. I agree.

I never argued that you could.

See that is what a straw man is. You are putting forward an argument that your opponent never made initially because it is easy to refute and then arguing against it.

All I said is that it is possible to put an army on the table for about $200 USD in both 40K and AoS.

I showed that a 30K or 40K army at that price point could be somewhat competitive but wouldn't argue that you could have all the tactical options. Of course you can't.

That is what a straw man argument is. Not only have I comprehended what you argued, I've shown why your argument is relying on a logical fallacy and then showed that even with that logical fallacy some part of your straw man argument isn't even true.

If you choose to be willfully ignorant then stifling me is probably your best policy.

@mithmee

I believe Pictors real issue is anyone being critical of a game company that does not run one themselves. I assume Pictors Studio is some kind of game company? I can sympathize with his sentiment I don't like people that have never been in the military thinking they are experts on military matters because they play war games… I have been watching his arguments for years!

You are not going to be able to reason with Pictors because he has an emotional investment in his argument that has nothing to do with GW or how they market their products. His strategy will be to continue to declare victory while alluding to the fact no one else knows what they are talking about (i.e. strawman). He cannot engage you on an intellectual level it is emotion driven.

I suggest you walk away from this argument…

I've always know that GW starter sets represented a good discount verses buying the equivalent troops off-the-shelf (though with different sculpts sometimes). But out of curiosity I did a quick check using manufacturers sites and working in Sterling for 28mm sci-fi starter sets, assuming no cost for the rules and gubbins that get added in. The % are very approximate and no doubt you can pick up discounted product, and nor can be held responsible for shipping, local taxes and other insanity, but heres the list
GW's Dark Vengence ~69%
Maelstroms Edge ~42%
Infinity Operation Icestorm ~37% (I did work in Euros on this one and took a rough average for the figures)
BtoA ~20%
Mantic Deadzone ~0% (but the cheapest at GB£50)

So Dark Vengence at least is stonkingly good value, and while I think I understand the price point(its where I'd stick it), it does beg a few questions. Though I would also argue that other things are eating into GW's profits rather than competing gaming companies.

LOL telling Mithmee that he can't reason with Pictors because Pictors has an emotional investment is a real hoot! Also telling Mithmee to walk away from an argument about GW is the best one I've heard in a while.

Yeah, like I am ever going to walk away.

Not likely to happen.

I do see that Pictors fails to see that Bolt Action is just 40K but during World War II.

Or that the cover of Warlord Games looks similar to this.

Oh and he also decided to fore go that GW stand alone games cost far more than they should or that GW has already kill one of them off.

BtGoA may cut into GW's profits because it looks like it is a good game with a neat story and a solid background but not because it is significantly cheaper.

Okay than what about this one?

It even has Dwarves/Squats in it.

enjoy: link

I have to agree with the individual who made this comment from that video.

The problem lots of people, including myself have, is that AoS is not really a reboot or a change of warhammer fantasy, it is it's destruction and replacement. It just is not the same game, they just turned it into 40k, right down to including space marines. It's just that simple, GW no longer makes Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40k, its 40k and the other 40k. I can see you'd be interested if you were a 40k player, if you preferred 40k already then obviously AoS is more up your street.The people who played fantasy over 40k did so because fantasy was a wargame, not a skirmish game, you were actually fielding an army worth the name, and you felt like a general when you played. AoS does not, and never will, scratch that itch.

Yup, that is AoS to a "T", it is nothing but Fantasy 40K with Marines.

"I do see that Pictors fails to see that Bolt Action is just 40K but during World War II."

Lots of games are more similar to 40K than Bolt Action. For example Flames of War is basically 40K, especially the first edition. Just with some minor changes.

I suppose someone could say that Rogue Trader was basically the Sword and the Flame only set in 40K.

There are certainly similarities.

But because games use some similar mechanisms doesn't mean that they are the same. And 40K is a sci-fantasy game that has a lot in common with warfare in WWI more so than WWII but there is a lot of overlap there too.

"Oh and he also decided to fore go that GW stand alone games cost far more than they should or that GW has already kill one of them off."

How much should they cost? How much can you make them for?

"Yup, that is AoS to a "T", it is nothing but Fantasy 40K with Marines."

How would you know, you have never played it?

Speaking of . . .

How about that bet? You going to put your money where your mouth is? You said you bet I haven't played a game with 150 figures a side.

Are you willing to stand behind your words?

How much should they cost? How much can you make them for?

Well for the first question they should cost a lot less than $150. USD

The second question is that they make them for hell of a lot less than what they sell them for.

There these games are just basically a way for GW to clear out inventory for their miniatures and get a big influx of cash while doing it.

How would you know, you have never played it?

You do not have to play it to see that it is nothing but a Fantasy setting for Warhammer 40K.

Its a different game, for reasons stated in the video. You and that commenter missed the point of the video. You can still play WHFB <whichever> edition. The game is now accessible to a lot more people, we have some 16 year old kids starting it up in our store. The problem with WHFB was that (especially in 8th), you needed to buy a lot to have a decent army to start with. Having played since 1992, I had no issues throwing together a WHFB army. But someone starting in 8th would have a hard time given that the giant blocks of troops were encouraged by the rules. Now you can buy a couple of boxes of stuff and play! I like the Old World but in the end it was a very generic fantasy world. I like the new fluff just as well and its much more unique. And if the Stormcast resemble space marines, who cares??? I don't play the Stormcast, but they are a pretty cool faction IMO.

Also, if you don't like it there are a bunch of other games to play… as you have pointed out ad nauseum, so why threadcrap on every post about 40k/AoS? It seems like an mental issue or unhealthy obsession. I really don't like My Little Pony but I don't post on Brony forums or threads….

You still haven't answered me about the bet.

You bet you couldn't play a game of AoS with 150 figures on a side. Are you going to follow through on this? Or are you admitting that you are ignorant?

"Put up or shut up" time.

No the bet was that you more than likely do not play with over a 150 models per side in you AoS games.

Not that you could play a game with that many figures.

So what is the normal amount of figures do you game with per side?

Centurio,

I started even before you did buying my first set of miniatures for 40K back in 1989.

The next group of miniatures had to wait until the early 1990's since I got sent back to Korea again.

But from 1991 to the mid to late 1990's I ended up with; 5 40K armies, 5 WFB armies & 5 EPIC armies.

You are right that you could not do this now unless you have around $5,000 USD-$8000. Thing is even with $8,000 USD I could not buy what I have today.

As to me hating GW well their decisions and constant killing off games along with their price gouging ways (doubling the price of certain models since they knew their customers would buy those units for their armies, like Dire Avengers & Witch Elves)

So now their are rumors about them bring back EPIC but increasing the scale so that older EPIC players cannot use their miniatures with the new game.

That is GW for you and I have many reasons to hate them.

Oh and I do believe that I started this thread along with the 40K End of Times thread.

I do recall WFB having an End of Times and GW sure went out of their way to get their Fanboyz to buy the books and other End of Times stuff and then they killed off WFB and came out with their Space Marine Fantasy game.

But back to what this thread is about, which is the Earnings Report which shows what I knew would be the case a year ago that they would be selling less and showing less profit.

Oh and since they came out with AoS Mantic has released their 2nd Edition for Kings of War, which quite a few WFB have gone to rather than jump on the AoS bandwagon. Oh and also did a Kickstarter for their Warpath game (I went with the Forge Fathers)

Oh and Rick Priestley new company (Warlord Games) has given us Bolt Action and Beyond the Gates of Antares plus Hail Caesar & Black Powder).

Oh and as I mentioned above Fantasy Flight Games has their own Fantasy game coming out as well, which looks interesting and something that I just might be getting.

Than you have Cool Mini or Not putting out great games with miniatures; Zombicide, Zombicide: Black Plaque, and their kickstarter for Massive Darkness ended not that long ago.

So I foresee Games Workshop having another bad year with less sales but we will have to wait until next for that.

Oh and my daughters did like My Little Pony and Rainbow Brite.

"Just how many miniatures do your AoS games have on just one side?

I will bet that it is not over 150."

Here is what you said.

Sometimes it isn't over 150 per side, sometimes it is. When I use my Tzeentch forces in a game we over 100 Pink Horrors alone on one side.

If you were doing a giant army you might only have 6 models on that side. If you were doing Skaven you would typically have more than 150 models on one side depending on the clan.

You just keep proving how clueless you are about all of this.

"Oh and as I mentioned above Fantasy Flight Games has their own Fantasy game coming out as well, which looks interesting and something that I just might be getting.

Than you have Cool Mini or Not putting out great games with miniatures; Zombicide, Zombicide: Black Plaque, and their kickstarter for Massive Darkness ended not that long ago."

Just like how Warmachine put Games Workshop out of business in 2004.

And how Rakham put them out of business in 2001.

Or maybe how Clix put them out of business in 1999.

"That is GW for you and I have many reasons to hate them."

So I hate Nazis. I just hate that they killed millions of people for no good reason. I hate their stupid narrow view of the world.

I hate fundamentalist Muslims and their desire to force everyone to their ridiculous point of view and their willingness to kill for their moronic ideas.

You hate a game company. Why? Not because you can't play with the toys you bought from them. Because you can't use the odd model here and there with the current rules, which no one is forcing you to play.

Price gouging refers to companies unethically exploiting people with high prices on goods.

Are you claiming that GW somehow has people over a barrel, similar to a pharmaceutical company whose customers need their product to stay alive, or a food company that exploits a natural disaster to jack up the prices of food?

If you are claiming this how are you simultaneously claiming that there are a lot of other options on the market for similar, or even better according to you, product?

Certainly you can't have it both ways.

Either GW is exploiting people because there is nothing of comparable quality out there and people need what they make.

Or there are tons of other good out there of comparable quality and people could easily choose another option.

PM me for the address to send me the copy of Balance of Power you owe me.

You can purchase it here:

link

Just don't buy the if it costs too much. Just play something else. There are other alternatives. Funny how that works. Too easy.

As far as the number of models, I've been playing the following lists (with some variations here and there)since the General's Handbook came out:

Destruction – 2000 points – 27 models

160 Tyrant – Leader
140 Butcher – Leader
140 Firebelly – Leader
120 Ogors (3) – Battleline
120 Ogors (3) – Battleline
120 Ogors (3) – Battleline
440 Ironguts (6)
160 Leadbelchers (3)
160 Leadbelchers (3)
180 Aleguzzler Gargant – Behemoth
180 Aleguzzler Gargant – Behemoth
60 Gorger

Order – 2000 points – 82 models

100 Knight-Questor – Leader
100 Battlemage (Jade) – Leader
100 Battlemage (Bright) – Leader
80 Gunmaster – Leader
320 Freeguild Greatswords (20)
220 Sisters of the Thorn (5)
300 Steam Tank – Behemoth
180 Empire Cannon – Artillery
180 Empire Cannon – Artillery
160 Freeguild Guard (20) – Battleline
160 Freeguild Guard (20) – Battleline
100 Freeguild Handgunners (10) – Battleline

The Order army could easily drop a couple of expensive units (Sisters of the Thorn and Steam tank) and be at around 150 models. It would probably be a more effective army if I did that, truth be told.

Fair enough, you did start this thread, but I was more referring to your overall posting not just this thread.

Maybe one day GW will go out of business, and your dreams will come true. But I've seen this same sort of post about GW going under for a long time, basically since the Internet existed as we know it. In a way, it would be entertaining if it happened because the posts of nerdragers posting "I told you so" messages would probably bring the Internet down for a day.

@ Dragon Gunner,

The smart money is actually on Mithmee being a sock puppet. Someone suggested that he was a sock puppet in another thread for GW to make arguments to make GW look better. I don't know who he is a sock puppet for but he can't be making these stupid arguments for real. I mean couple his arguments with his bad English and you definitely have someone who is out to make Games Workshop haters look stupid.

Just like how Warmachine put Games Workshop out of business in 2004.

And how Rakham put them out of business in 2001.

Or maybe how Clix put them out of business in 1999.

Hmm, interesting how cutting into their profits turns into putting them out of business.

I do not seem to recall ever stating anything of the sort.

The smart money is actually on Mithmee being a sock puppet.

I would not put any money on that since you would lose.

PM me for the address to send me the copy of Balance of Power you owe me.

Who says that I owe you anything?

So if you that over price book you better order it from GW before they run out of copies.

No Liz, he is real. He just hates GW so much that he gets carried away in his arguments. He might fall into the category of someone who loved someone(or thing) so much that when he was let down by said entity it angered and disappointed him so much that he will appear on any TMP GW thread in order to 'vent his spleen'.
And Pictors, quit using facts, it just gets them all the more worked up.
Thanks,
Pat

"I would not put any money on that since you would lose."

But what would that matter, if she followed your example she wouldn't have to pay up anyway.

You said:

"GW just might be in for a world of hurt."

Which certainly implies more than just a little bit of their revenue would be eaten away.

Still does not mean shutting them down.

Plus as others have already stated the greatest threat to Games Workshop is its own…

Management

We will see just where this 40K End of Times goes.

@Royal Liz

That was me who said Mithmee was a sock puppet to make GW look better. I was just poking fun at Mithmee, I wasn't serious.

The more I play AoS, the more I wouldn't mind them doing the same thing with 40k.

Every time this sort of thread pops up I find it so ironic that the GW Haters' Club is obsessed with the concept of a "Grim Future" for the company.

Of course, the doom-sayers have been predicting GW's demise for almost as long as the Jehovah's Witnesses have been revising their equally definitive predictions for the absolutely, definitely accurate (this time) date for the End of the World.

I can't help wondering if there might be a connection. Perhaps it's just that the sort of people who aren't having a good time can at least console themselves by telling the rest of us that we're doomed?

"And Pictors, quit using facts, it just gets them all the more worked up."- Patrick Sexton

The issue is he doesn't get to cherry pick his facts then start shrieking "strawman" when anyone counters his precious opinion.

Pictors Studio,Centurio Prime,
Why on this green earth would all or any of you bother to argue with Mithmee, about anything GW related, whatsoever? Seriously!?!
I don't believe he is a sock puppet at all, but he does behave like a broken recording device that is jammed on replay/rewind/repeat.
TEN YEARS!!! this guy has been slavishly railing out at GW. I am sure he believes strongly he has his reasons and justifications.Hell,I myself stopped buying GW stuff that I have always been fond of, years ago because their prices are unjustifiable to me. Do I tell other not to buy them based on my personal chooses, no.
After a decade of being exposed to his endless,boring,repetitive,annoying and pointless bashing any time I have ever tried to even glance at anything GW makes, while enjoying TMP, I finally succumbed to hitting the stifle button. I am not suggesting that others do the same. It was not a lightly taken decision by me. I believe all points of view have value. However when the dead horse is beaten to the point that there is naught left but dust, it came time for me to walk away from the bat wielder.
What Mithmee does is in clear violation of this sights rules and he is rarely called on it. I don't know why, and in truth I no longer care as I don't expect any change.
Dragon Gunner,
We have had many enjoyable encounters on TMP over the years. For the life of me, I cannot imagine why you would defend and encourage Mithmee to continue in his endless behavior loop.
Yes he has the freedom to write as he wants, but to pretend for even a moment it is reasonable or a reasoned argument being put forth and not a mindless diatribe, leaves me shaking my head.
With all due respect to all involved, please return to your regularly scheduled GW argument. ( sigh)

Sorry got to move on from this because the FFG GW License thing that just popped up this week.

Der Krieg Geist, I only pop in to argue with Mithmee occasionally, because I find it amusing.

Centurio Prime, one mans amusement is and other mans brain aneurysm. :D If I could blot out his posts altogether so as to not even see the name, I would. LOL

To be fair, Mithmee's promise to "move on" has to be seen as a positive step.

………unless I've misunderstood the context?

Oh well, as Gust Avrakotos's Zen Master said (Charlie Wilson's War) "We'll see…."

@ Dragon Gunner

Maybe Pictors was just trying to educate you. You were actually using a straw man argument.

Here, look for your self:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

If not you seem to be the one that started shrieking and looked immature by storming off from the discussing with your fingers in your ears.

To be fair, Mithmee's promise to "move on" has to be seen as a positive step.

………unless I've misunderstood the context?

Well I needed to focus on the FFG – GW License issue since that is important.

But this will hit GW Earnings next year just do not know by how much. But we will cover this next year.

Fantasy Flight Games has put out some great games that were driven by GW IP.

Oh and the price gouging has started since all of these games will be going OOP.

auction

Oh and I still need to get the Horned Rat expansion so that I can make it a 5 player game.

Going to see if I can pick up the Death Angel card game and it expansions without having to pay through the nose.

The Struggle is Real, Mithmee

Well Chaos in the Old World is no longer available.

But we are working at getting Horned Rat but going to be hard.

The base Death Angel game can be had but the four expansions that don't sell for much are though the roof, around $50 USD at Amazon and $65 USD on Ebay.

@Royal Liz

"The argument is what is the barrier to play."

Pictors own words. He responds continuously to the points I made and I thought that was our subject of debate. He then includes strawman in his description of everything I have to say. He claims he made no "assertion" yet keeps responding to the points I have made. He cherry picks his facts as absolutes to support his position then called me out for doing the same.

Now please show me what exactly my strawman argument was? Who knows I may have actually been engaging in one and if so I owe Pictors an apology. Please present your position in a logical manner not emotion induced opinion. If you have chosen Pictors side in this matter purely because you like his position more then come right out and say so.

"If not you seem to be the one that started shrieking and looked immature by storming off from the discussing with your fingers in your ears."- Royal Liz

The older I get the less patience I have for debating styles where one person cherry picks their facts, declares victory then attempts to shut the other person down as unreasonable. You get the other person to concede their position not declare victory. Once again if you liked Pictors argument more and have a built in bias say so!

"Dragon Gunner,
We have had many enjoyable encounters on TMP over the years. For the life of me, I cannot imagine why you would defend and encourage Mithmee to continue in his endless behavior loop"- Der Krieg Giest

Thank you for your kind words!

I am not a rabid hater of GW and I know Mithmee can take it to levels I don't agree with. I know many of you are frustrated with this endless cycle of arguments. No you will not change him. We do happen to agree on a few points regarding price however and I don't care what GW charges. My point of contention is the person that can afford to spend more on GW products can field more tactical options and has an unfair advantage. I have seen this drive players away from the game.

When I got into 40K back in the Rogue Trader days if one guy showed up with a dreadnought in his collection and you lacked heavy weapons to counter it you could still buy haywire grenades, vortex grenades or psykers skills as a counter and they did not cost you any real money… You could still play and be competitive.

Dragon,

Spot on!

My Eldar Avatar was taken out by Vortex Grenades in many, many battles. But I knew that going in since I had my own character armed with one as well.

But GW did away with balance completely and made the game one of who can but the most/best.

There is a few battle reports on TMP right now that has three Vindictors line up bumper to bumper.

That is some heavy firepower that will destroy nearly anything that is in front of them.

Totally legal but for many players not fun to play against with the current set of rules, since cover is not going to help and those three pie plates will kill what they shoot at.

"When I got into 40K back in the Rogue Trader days if one guy showed up with a dreadnought in his collection and you lacked heavy weapons to counter it you could still buy haywire grenades, vortex grenades or psykers skills as a counter and they did not cost you any real money… You could still play and be competitive."

My favorite was the x2 vortex grenade orc suicide bomber. You could take out a lot of harlequins and a walker if you play him right…;-)

Bought Sold…Bought Sold…Bought Sold.

That basically has been my experience with GW.

Until this year, I have been gaming since way before the 80's, I never read a GW novel. Now that I have a bunch under my belt, I actually really enjoy the fluff and bought a bunch of 40K armies (Mostly on the used market).

I played my first game of 40k since I don't know when. It was a smallish Grey Knights against Grey Knights game and really enjoyed it. I picked up Kill Team and Lost Patrol. I have gone old school and picked up a lot of the Rogue Trader figures.

I have actually started back up painting again and have reasonably finished 6 Grey knight units + special characters.

There is a GW store in town and they always seem to have guys spending money. Many of the other gaming stores I visit have a lot of guys playing various games, but they seem to be buying a lot online and jumping in on kickstarters.

GW is moving towards bigger bases, which IMO means they are probably going to change 40K to be more skirmish like. Similar to what Warhammer/AoS has become. I hated the move, but it seems to have attracted a whole new group of players who like it. It also has the benefit of not having to have as many figures to play the game.

I think GWs advantage is they don't just make money off of their miniatures, but have paints, books, terrain and digital stuff.

From a gamer's perspective, the big advantage of GW IMO is it is easier to sell GW stuff than many of the competitors games and miniatures. The secondary market is awesome.

"But GW did away with balance completely and made the game one of who can but the most/best."

We played a game the other night. One side had Angron and a land raider. The other side had regular marines mostly.

It was a tie.

"There is a few battle reports on TMP right now that has three Vindictors line up bumper to bumper.

That is some heavy firepower that will destroy nearly anything that is in front of them."

Except, and here is the best part, the side that had those three vindicators lost!

Your example disproves your point, it actually works against the point you are trying to make.

"My point of contention is the person that can afford to spend more on GW products can field more tactical options and has an unfair advantage. I have seen this drive players away from the game."

But this is true of almost any game.

The person who can spend more on Corvus Belli products can field more tactical options for Infinity and has an "unfair" advantage. The person who spends more money on Privateer Press products can field more tactical options for Warma/Hordes and has an "unfair" advantage. Ditto with Malifaux, ditto with Dropzone Commander. Ditto with Flames of War. Ditto with Warhammer ancient battles. Ditto with Hail Caesar. Ditto with Bolt Action.

Ditto for Rogue Trader. It was true for 40K second edition. If your opponent had more money spent on whatever it was they had more tactical options. If you equipped your whole force with vortex grenades to take out their whole force of dreadnoughts you would probably lose some of those guys to long range fire before they got there and then wouldn't have enough.

Even in Rogue trader the person who can afford a greater variety of models has an advantage.

I guess it isn't true for DBA. It is about the only game where you get all the options for your army in one box.

If you equipped your whole force with vortex grenades

Could not do that due to the limited that you could have plus the cost of the grenade.

Though for my Harlequin Army that I had 20 years ago (only had 36 miniatures). I did not put that much money into and it had a very high Win to Lost ratio.

There was far more balance than today.

So you're saying that because you had a very high win to loss ration there was balance?

That doesn't make sense. If you had an army that won way more often than it lost it would seem to imply that it was unbalanced.

"There is a few battle reports on TMP right now that has three Vindictors line up bumper to bumper"-Mithmee

I started with Rogue Trader, went in the military and took a hiatus from gaming. When I got out my gaming group was no longer playing Rogue trader and had moved onto a newer addition that promoted tournament play. I picked up the rules and the first thing I noticed was I was going to need a lot of miniatures to play. I picked Imperial Guard and went about collecting my army on a tight budget. The first choices were "troop" choices that I had to have. I had enough left over to buy some heavy weapons.

I was struggling to support a wife and two children. My gaming group was in their twenties and still living at home with their parents so their incomes could be used for whatever they wanted.

The Eldar player in our group when facing me AND ONLY ME would take three Warp Spider squads, Warp Spider Exarch and some Guardians with Shuriken Catapults. Every game played out the same with him moving his Warp Spiders to mid table on the first turn in cover where I could not shoot them. On turn two he would move them into my deployment zone and the flamer templates would annihilate most of my force. There was no way to avoid it no matter how far I spread out my troops.

This continued for half a year until I bought a Hell Hound tank and wiped his entire army out since he never bothered to take anti tank weapons. The next time he faced me he ditched the Warp Spider Exarch and one Warp Spider squad to take two weapon platforms instead. One fast attack armored vehicle scared him to death…

The other guy I gamed against took three Whirlwinds against me and ME ONLY. He would pulverize my troops from cover and I could never live long enough to reach across the table. In fact he never even bothered to protect his Whilrwinds because he knew I could not hurt them when they were behind a hill or building in his deployment zone. This continued unitl I was able to buy Storm Troopers with melta guns that deep striked into his deployment zone…

To give all of you an idea of what their collections were like they had three of EVERYTHING ever made for their armies. They even had Forge World items…

I continued to play with later additions and continued to add to my army but it stopped being fun.

Before anyone attacks me for being poor or suggesting I read some books on strategy they should know this. I hung with the game for a long time in spite of the crushing losses. I saw MANY others pack it in when they realized they could not compete. I have walked into hobby shops and watched new players being butchered not because of a lack of skill but because their opponents brought more tactical choices to the table.

I have seen even more walk by a GW table and say that looks cool until they realize they can't afford to play.