"GW Earnings Report is Out" Topic

Well the 2015-2016 Earnings report is out and it not that great.

I tried posting this earlier with a link to the report but that thread never made it to the board.

Basically, revenue is down and profit from this revenue is down around 27%.

Oh and Royalties were the only thing that was keeping revenue up more than what it was.

Here is something about it.

link

I'm not one to demonise GW but yes, something is wrong, and yes, something needs to change. They're not dead or even doomed by any means but the current policies and management plans are clearly not working and need to be changed.

Perhaps, listening to your regular, repeat business customers is not such a bad thing afterall?

The biggest threat to GW is its own top management.

The biggest threat to GW is its own top management.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Well, a few more like that and we could probably pass the hat around at TMP and have enough to buy it! And then we could run it as a wargaming company….

..and it would sink without trace within 6 months!!!

Warhammer shops – "Sorry, we don't stock that in our stores" – "order it on our website" … why would I waste my time going to a store.

At some point, the disconnect between having a bricks and mortar store and an on-line store will be noticed and the GW drive to open shops will cease, realising the overheads don't generate the revenue required to justify them.

I strongly believe that GW directors have a strange little man in robes who throws chicken bones into a bowl for answers whenever a directorate decision is required…

Bless 'em

I strongly believe that GW directors have a strange little man in robes who throws chicken bones into a bowl for answers whenever a directorate decision is required…

Insomniac..I worked for a while for a company that had me sit in on a personnel interview for two applicants (poly husband and wife) that thought they were vampires, so honestly you might not be that far off….

..and it would sink without trace within 6 months!!!

Only if you attempted to do that in its current state!

I strongly believe that GW directors have a strange little man in robes who throws chicken bones into a bowl for answers whenever a directorate decision is required…

That's a management consultant then?

I worked for a while for a company that had me sit in on a personnel interview for two applicants (poly husband and wife) that thought they were vampires, so honestly you might not be that far off….

Okay', I would say thats the weirdest interview anecdote I've heard in awhile, but I fear that someone will probably better it…. Though based on the single short interview I had with GW retail many, many years ago I'd say as long as they could paint, recite the contents of rules and catalogues, and shout 'Waagh, the orks' they would have been a shoe in there….

+1 Chokidar

Perhaps, listening to your regular, repeat business customers is not such a bad thing afterall?

Thing is they drive a large percentage of their customers away.

Which is a reason for why their sales are down.

As for that Vampire couple they would be perfect for working the night shift.

GW's business strategy seems to focus on reinventing itself every couple of years. That simply does not engender customer loyalty. Quite the opposite, in fact. When you make major changes, your customers may see this as an opportunity to try out the competition. How much of that 27% can be attributed to the release of Frostgrave, for example?

And that strategy with the paint? "Let's give it no shelf life so our customers will have to buy more?" That's a major league backfire. How much are your paint sales down as a result?

Struggling companies that bring in good management find a way to succeed. Good companies that bring in poor management flounder and fail.

I'm not sure that GW is all that struggling of a company.

The financial analysis in that article is pretty shallow. It looks at some of the bad stuff but doesn't really address some of the rather significant reasons why a drop in revenue is not that big of a problem.

For one thing they have about 12 million pounds in liquid assets. How many miniature companies have that kind of reserve fund?

Secondly they don't owe anyone any money. They own all of their assets, have zero liabilities, they aren't paying off any loans. They have cash to pay for what they need when they need it.

Royalties are probably going to be increasing on computer games in the near future. Sure they are a model company but that has all lead to producing some very desirable intellectual property which can be licensed. I mean George Lucas set out to make some sci-fantasy films and made a good chunk of his money from licensing.

This is something that could seriously be increased in the future. There are no 40K movies out there now, no cartoons, no media other than books and some graphic novels.

I don't know if they are going to exploit that. If it is done well it could be awesome but there is a good chance it won't be. I do think there is room to hope as prior to Spider Man most of the comic book movies that came out were not so great. There has been a huge explosion in getting some of these properties right. GI Joe failed but the first Transformer movie was pretty good, so good that they made it at least two more times.

If they had a hit sci-fi movie they could do very well indeed.

And the big thing, if you actually read the report instead of what someone tells you about the report, is that the hobby decisions, the making models part, is actually doing pretty well.

Age of Sigmar has been a huge success compared to sales of Warhammer Fantasy Battle over the past few years.

From reading the report this is not a company that is in a tail spin. It is a company that has a healthy grasp on its target market, a pretty large option to expand an additional revenue source and some crappy marketing decisions and capital investment decisions.

The GW stores seem to be dragging the company down. As someone mentioned above they go into the store and don't have everything. This was my experience too.

We had a GW store open in Bridgeville and I went there once just to check it out and to get the limited edition Forge World Legion Praetor. I also wanted some Beastmen, just regular Beastmen Gors.

They didn't have them.

So I went to the local store where I usually buy stuff and got them there.

If you can't get all your basic stuff at the GW store why is it there. I can get the stuff cheaper elsewhere, support both GW and another company at the same time and go to a place where they not only have more room to play but also allow a lot more leeway on what models I use when I play.

It seems like the stores are currently not optimized in anyway. They aren't great places to play a game, you don't have all the range of product there, there are no discounts and it isn't open to any other type of gaming (understandably, but less reason to make it my normal shop.)

So from this report you have a company that is well capitalized, has no debt and seems to expanding both its primary market over recent years and expanding a secondary market which could easily become a primary market (look at Marvel with their comic sales vs. movie ticket sales) but doesn't know how best to reach its customers directly.

That isn't a bad position to be in.

For all the (endless) predictions of the end of GW, I would guess that any of Bill's advertisers would trade their current debt and bank account situation with that of GW in a heartbeat, unless they are only doing this as a hobby and never want to do it as more than that.

This is a pretty good article on the subject of GW imminent demise:

link

The headline is:

Games Workshop looks to be in a lot of trouble

Published January 2014.

Here is another great quote:

"I have not asked my local shop but if GW is hiking their prices that much they just killed themselves. I have no doubt after years and years of doing this they just crossed an invisible line. The old prices were keeping alot of people from playing a hike of 25-40%, even on select items, will kill their business growth. New gamers will not play and old ones will not build new armies they were planning. I know I have canceled at least one army I planned to build and if they are hiking the prices I certainly will cancel my intention to get back into Fantasy Battle. Two teenagers I know were really wanting to play any one of the 3 main GW games and even with me really telling them how much fun it is they ended up walking away from all the GW products when they saw just how out of line the prices were."

This was in 2004. 12 years ago.

I'm guessing that there is a lot in the financial report that many people celebrating the bad news haven't read or don't understand. I mean if concepts like inflation and sales tax are too complicated getting through an entire financial report must be the equivalent to someone else getting through med school.

I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that aos is selling so much better than WFB 8th was.

"we finished the year with sales of Warhammer: Age of Sigmar at a higher rate than Warhammer has enjoyed for several years"

I didn't come to the conclusion. I just read the report.

Pictor makes some excellent points. Marvel does not make its major money selling comic books (although sales appear to be strong) it instead has made its fortune with licensing, movies, TV, toys, games, etc. and that is where the future is for GW. One well done Space Marine movie or a well done adaptation of Gaunt's Ghosts and some of you will wish you had bought stock in GW.

Games Workshop HAS made several changes recently… such as they way they do FAQs with input from players, a points system for AoS, and the "Start Collecting" boxes which are actually a discount price over buying the contents separately. Many people I know are really happy with what they are doing lately… seemingly listening to player/fan input.

I have seen these doomsday scenarios on the Internet for literally 20 years….. GW is going out of business. Keep 'em coming… I think they are funny. Maybe one day, GW will finally go under and the Internet will explode with the "Told you So's" of a million vindicated neckbeards!

What I am about to say is not GW bashing I just hope they read this and take note.

Every time I go into a brick and mortar type hobby shop I do not see teens or even early twenty somethings playing GW games. I see 30, 40 or even 50 + year olds that can afford to buy their games. I can see why when I walk by a GW game table and I start calculating the cost. I see an army worth $500 USD- $800 USD+ dollars worth of miniatures on the table.

I got into the hobby back in the Rogue Trader days when all I needed was the marine plastic set and a handful of blisters to get the different weapon options. The game was fun but over time it morphed into a monster. I have seen new players butchered by guys that can "pay to win" by fielding all the various tactical options. The game isn't fun they lose interest and bail. The guy that can afford to field an $800 USD (or higher) dollar army suddenly has no one to play with so he bails also.

I believe bringing back Specialist Games was the smartest move I have seen in years. You buy the basic box set and you are ready to play. You buy a basic 40K box set and its like buying a chess set with out rooks or bishops then you have to play against someone that has a complete chess set.

Here is what I think they should do…

#1 Emphasize gate way games like Kill Team, Necromunda, Space Hulk etc… Get people playing and build your fan base.

#2 Make follow on products that are not "pay to win". They add to the game but do not create an arms race. Example I want the new Necromunda gang because its cool. Instead of I want the new Necromunda gang because each guy fires three times per turn and only cost 5 points)

#3 Make a high quality 40K movie not some B film or straight to DVD schlock. You would get a lot more exposure to your product line and you already own the "toys" to sell.

"#2 Make follow on products that are not "pay to win". They add to the game but do not create an arms race. Example I want the new Necromunda gang because its cool. Instead of I want the new Necromunda gang because each guy fires three times per turn and only cost 5 points)"

They tried this with AoS. There was no arms race, there were no points. People bitched like crazy.

"I can see why when I walk by a GW game table and I start calculating the cost. I see an army worth $500 USD USD- $800 USD USD+ dollars worth of miniatures on the table."

This isn't really the case with Age of Sigmar. A good army can be had for $200 USD or less easy.

So they are already doing the things you suggest.

Also, you'll note, they just released Kill Team last week.

Centurio Prime is spot on. They really have been listening and changing lately.

Sounds like time for another round of monthly price increases to improve the bottom line.

"we finished the year with sales of Warhammer: Age of Sigmar at a higher rate than Warhammer has enjoyed for several years"

I didn't come to the conclusion. I just read the report.

True, but is that because AoS miniatures cost more than WFB or are they lying?

The real story is that their Revenues are down.

Marvel does not make its major money selling comic books (although sales appear to be strong) it instead has made its fortune with licensing, movies, TV, toys, games, etc. and that is where the future is for GW.

True, but Fantasy Flight is going to put out their own Fantasy miniature games very soon and that will be another company that GW will have to complete with.

Games Workshop HAS made several changes recently… such as they way they do FAQs with input from players, a points system for AoS, and the "Start Collecting" boxes which are actually a discount price over buying the contents separately. Many people I know are really happy with what they are doing lately… seemingly listening to player/fan input.

Yes but what drove GW to do this?

Sales falling into the toilet more than likely.

Every time I go into a brick and mortar type hobby shop I do not see teens or even early twenty somethings playing GW games. I see 30, 40 or even 50 + year olds that can afford to buy their games. I can see why when I walk by a GW game table and I start calculating the cost. I see an army worth $500 USD USD- $800 USD USD+ dollars worth of miniatures on the table.

$500 USD – $800 USD would only be around half of most of my armies and barely a 3rd of either my Empire or Orc & Goblins armies.

But when I go into the FLGS I have never seen any one playing AoS, 40K or WFB.

I have seen them playing Hero Clix, X-Wing, Armada, War Machine & Star Trek.

So they are already doing the things you suggest.

Also, you'll note, they just released Kill Team last week.

Yeah, their stand alone games like the one that costs $150 USD retail and with taxes cost around $165. USD

Funny I can buy games from other companies for far less and are far better games.

Like some of the ones mentioned above or that are coming out from Fantasy Flight or Cool Mini or Not.

Both of these companies are going to put a hurt onto GW esp Fantasy Flight once it gets it new Fantasy Game out.

Kill Team:

link

"Yeah, their stand alone games like the one that costs $150 USD USD retail and with taxes cost around $165. USD USD"

I think we can just conclude that you have no idea what you are talking about.

12 mill' in liquid assets sounds excellent, when I suspect many of the manufacturers/developers/designers on TMP would probably do dispicable things for just 12K to fund their next project. But I suspect that 12 mill' wouldn't stretch far for an organisation the size of GW (could even be just enough wind up should the need arise taking into account all possible expenses). And while royalties are doing good for the balance sheet that money is derived ultimately from the IP (of which GW has probably one) – underpinned by it having a fan/customer base. If fan base drifts the license is suddenly a lot less attractive and royalities will go with it. I don't see GW as the 'Evil Empire', more like the one in Spaceballs…

@Pictors

I don't play AOS I was referring to 40K so your points are not valid.

Yes they have released Kill Team now they need to emphasize it instead of making it a one off item that withers and goes no where.

Wait, my points aren't valid because they don't apply to you? How does that work?

You said "when I walk by a GW game table and I start calculating the cost. I see an army worth $500 USD USD USD- $800 USD USD USD+ dollars worth of miniatures on the table."

That could be true, your point was that the cost is a barrier to get into GW games. With AoS it no longer is. You can't just discount about half of the products they produce because you don't play them.

Also the start collecting sets are available for 40K too, making those armies substantially cheaper.

Kill Team now they need to emphasize it instead of making it a one off item that withers and goes no where.

Hard to tell with this one but it looks like they are trying to focus on only putting a very small number of miniatures on the table.

Thing is with around 200+ Marines now why would I want to buy this? But if you buy around 4-5 sets you would now have a decent size starting force with 40-50 Marines.

To bad that going that way would mean forking over around $352 USD – $440. USD

That could be true, your point was that the cost is a barrier to get into GW games. With AoS it no longer is.

Thing is there are quite a few of us who would much rather be fielding 150-200+ miniatures in units or in case of Ork & Goblin being able to put 500+ miniatures on the table top.

Just how many miniatures do your AoS games have on just one side?

I will bet that it is not over 150.

Thing is GW is not the biggest company on the block anymore.

link

Asmodee

Who acquired Fantasy Flight Games & Days of Wonder back in 2014 and we know what Fantasy Flight has been doing since then.

On January 7, 2016 it was announced[3] that Asmodée had acquired the English language rights to the Catan™ games from Mayfair Games, creating a new company Catan Studio, Inc.. Following Asmodee's acquisition of these major board game publishers, along with the Spot-It! casual games series in 2015,[4] this means the new company now controls the rights to the popular titles Ticket to Ride, Dixit, Citadels, Talisman, Small World, 7 Wonders, and Catan.[5] It was announced on July 22, 2016 that Asmodee also acquired F2Z Entertainment (Z-Man Games, Plaid Hat Games, and Filosophia).

link

Miniature Games that Fantasy Flight:

X-Wing
Star Wars Armada
Imperial Assault
Dust Tactics
Dust Warfare
and soon
Runewars

link

YouTube link

Want bet that Runewars will cost far less than GW stuff and if they put out disc's so that individuals with WFB armies can convert over their stuff to Runewars…

GW just might be in for a world of hurt.

"I will bet that it is not over 150."

How much will you bet?

"Yeah, their stand alone games like the one that costs $150 USD USD USD retail and with taxes cost around $165. USD USD USD"

I think we can just conclude that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Really? I don't have a clue.

Death Masque: Retail Cost $150 USD plus Washington State taxes get you…

Approx $165 USD

link

Deathwatch Overkill: Retail Cost $165 USD with taxes over $180. USD

link

The Horus Hersey: Betrayal at Calth: Cost $150 USD with taxes $165 USD

Imperial Knights: Renegade: Well this one did sell for $195 USD and with taxes would have been around $215. USD

But it sold out and is no longer available. So a standard GW grab for cash and once the initial batch were sold that is it.

So yes I know actually what I am talking about.

It would appear that you on the other hand is the one who does not have a clue.

No, you don't.

You prove it again and again.

You compare GW retail prices with tax to prices of other games from discounters without tax.

You don't seem to comprehend the idea of inflation at all, not seeming to understand that models that the $3 USD you paid for a model in 1992 isn't the same as $3 USD in 2016.

You make statements like:

"True, but is that because AoS miniatures cost more than WFB or are they lying?"

When they have actually decreased prices on a lot of models for AoS or provided bundle deals at incredibly discounted prices.

Plus you stated that Kill Teams "stand alone games like that one" cost $150. USD

And the big one, you've never actually played AoS. You repeatedly are confused about how mechanisms in it work. You make errors about how their other games work like when you claimed that you had to kill big monsters all in one go in Warmaster.

Again and again you come here with prejudices that just don't stand up to reality. It is kind of like GW is the girl that broke up with you in 10th grade and you are still calling her a for going to homecoming with some other boy.

Just because you managed to check your facts one time for this post when your lack of knowledge got called out in such an obvious way doesn't change the fact that you have no idea about GW stuff today or what they are doing.

So are you going to take my bet? I'll bet you a copy of Runewars for a copy of Balance of Power that I've played games of AoS with more than 150 models on one side.

Another thing you are clueless about.

"Wait, my points aren't valid because they don't apply to you? How does that work?"

You don't get to cherry pick to prove your point!

"It is kind of like GW is the girl that broke up with you in 10th grade and you are still calling her a Bleeped text for going to homecoming with some other boy."- Pictors

Grow up and stop with the personal insults you are the one that sounds like you are still in high school.

Yes. That is my point. You can't just say my argument is invalid because you don't play one of their games.

They have taken AoS in a new direction. You said you walk by GW games where the entry point is so high new kids can't get started. GW has significantly lowered the entry point cost on one of their games so new kids can easily get playing for as little as $85. USD

Like you said, you don't get to cherry pick to prove your point.

"Yes. That is my point. You can't just say my argument is invalid because you don't play one of their games."

You cannot hold up one of their games to prove your point either so stop doubling down on what you think is a win its not.

"To bad that going that way would mean forking over around $352 USD USD – $440. USD USD"- Mithmee

You are right and still out of reach of most teens and early 20 somethings.

What you said is that a GW game needs $500 USD-800 to be played, essentially. For AoS the cost is something like half to one quarter of this, or about $200. USD

Had you said initially that when you walk by a 40K game you need that you might have a point. You didn't.

For your statement to be true a GW game needs to have about $500 USD-800 on a typical gaming table.

Half of their games don't do this. So your statement is not true as a universal.

With the introduction of Kill Team it might not be true as for the other game either soon.

My point is that the entry cost for Age of Sigmar is significantly less than the entry cost for WHFB. That to play a GW game, even if you want to play competitively, you don't need to spend anywhere close to $500. USD

You were suggesting that they move away from that model.

They already have for one of their games. They are making it possible to do it for the other.

Your argument is like someone saying that riding motorcycles without helmets is dangerous and you saying that it is invalid because you drive a car.

@pictors

So he triples down…

"To bad that going that way would mean forking over around $352 USD USD USD – $440. USD USD USD"- Mithmee"

This is not right. You can get two Betrayal at Calth sets for $300 USD which has 60 marines, 10 terminators and 2 dreadnoughts plus 2x 2 characters. Just one set would be a decent sized force, enough to start and that would only be $150. USD

You can't get anything you want for cheap, but the barrier to getting into GW games is not that high.

Sure if you want to play Warmachine or Hordes it is only $50 USD but then you are playing a very small scale skirmish. If you want to play Kill Team two can play for only $65. USD

@Pictors

The two Betrayal at Calth boxes won't allow you to field all the various weapon options. You still need special, heavy and assault weapons if you want to use the box contents for a game of 40K. Go to Forge World and check out the prices.

Mithmees comment is accurate if you pick squad boxes from the GW store.

I have already stated I think Kill team is the way to go. At least you can start playing and then add slowly over time.

"The two Betrayal at Calth boxes won't allow you to field all the various weapon options. You still need special, heavy and assault weapons if you want to use the box contents for a game of 40K"

No starter set allows you to fill all of the weapons options. This is a straw man argument.

All I have in my 30K World Eater force is two betrayal at Calth boxed sets, one pack of ravagers and one pack of Apothecaries from Forge World, plus a couple of rhinos and a land raider.

But from just the two sets you can build one heavy weapon squad with either missile launchers or heavy bolters.

You can field a squad of specialist weapons guys with plasma guns, flamers or meltaguns.

Four tactical squads with 12 men each.

One terminator squad with power fist and combi bolter

One terminator squad with lightning claws.

One dreadnought with close combat weapon and assault cannon

One dreadnought with close combat weapon and multimelta

And four characters.

Now the characters are pretty limited in terms of options.

But that would be a pretty complete force for 30K.

For 40K you could give all four of your tactical squads special and heavy weapons and still have enough heavy weapons left over to equip a devastator squad.

"Mithmees comment is accurate if you pick squad boxes from the GW store."

So Mithmee's comment is accurate if you choose to play the game in the most expensive way possible.

I'm not arguing that you can't pay a lot for your models, I'm arguing that you don't have to to get into the game.

Kill Team is the best option for starting small and adding over time. And it is available.

You don't need Kill Team for AoS because you can already start small, but they have added a version of it anyway in the General's Handbook with the Path To Glory rules.

"No starter set allows you to fill all of the weapons options."

On that we agree! So after buying a starter box you don't have all the tactical options your opponent has if he can afford to spend more on the hobby. Like I said in my initial post its like buying a chess set without rooks or bishops.

Perhaps a disclaimer on the starter box would help, "Note this is not a complete game. If you don't drop another few hundred right now you will get butchered by guys that have spent more".

"This is a straw man argument"

Care to elaborate?

"So Mithmee's comment is accurate if you choose to play the game in the most expensive way possible"

If you want tactical, devastator, assault, scout, terminator, command and all the various possible weapon combinations and who wouldn't? You are going to buy multiple box sets. Yes Kill Team gets you started then you add these options over time. At least with Kill Team you can start playing right away and not feel totally gimped.

"This is a straw man argument"

"Care to elaborate?"

Sure, you put forward an argument that was easy to argue against and that didn't fit with my position. That was that you can't get every option in the starter set.

This is not what I was arguing, it will not be true for any game that isn't a small scale skirmish game and probably is not even a viable business model for a miniature company.

Of course if you want all the stuff it is going to get expensive.

If you wanted all the options for Napoleonic French in any given period it would be expensive too.

The argument is what is the barrier to play. GW has put a number of sets out in the last year that have made that threshold pretty low for this hobby.

From your list:

"tactical, devastator, assault, scout terminator, command and all the various possible weapon combinations"

You can get tactical, devastator, terminators and command in the BaC set. It is all compatible with 40K as well as 30K.

So then all you need to buy in addition to that is scouts, which aren't that expensive and assault marines, which are more so. Plus vehicles.

There are a lot of options. As with any hobby expenditure on the high end is almost limitless.

On the low end, to get started, you could spend $150 USD and have a decent, competitive, diverse force at just over 1200 pts. Add in one of the Start Collecting sets for $85 USD more and you have a pretty viable force. If you got the Blood Angels Start Collecting set you would even have a tank with it.

So for $235 USD retail you have 40 marines, with options to build 4 with heavy bolters, 1 with a heavy flamer, 3 with missile launchers, 4 with melta guns, 4 with plasma guns, 4 with flamers and 1 with a grav gun, make 4 (or actually more) into sergeants with options for 7 powerfists total, 4 plasma pistols, 4 chain swords, 4 power swords and other stuff including 4 of the various combi-weapons.

Plus 5 terminators armed with either two lightning claws, a power fist and combi bolter or a lightning claw and combi bolter and make one into a sgt.

A dreadnought with options above.

Three characters, one of which could easily be used as a sgt. in the terminator squad giving you six of those and only two characters if you want to do it that way.

and a tank that can be built in several different ways.

Those are quite a few options for $235 USD retail.

"Sure, you put forward an argument that was easy to argue against and that didn't fit with my position"

Easy to argue against?

"The argument is what is the barrier to play."

Ok you can start playing right away with the box contents. Your assertion is the box contents are a viable force if I am understanding you correctly. I say they are not. I could list examples of game play where I have seen people butchered because they had the starter box contents to play with and their opponent had unlimited tactical options.

"Easy to argue against?"

Yes, you argued that you can't get all the tactical options out of the starter box. If I had asserted that you could, that would be an easy argument to argue against. I did not put that forward.

In your example you are also probably talking about someone just getting into the game playing against an experienced player. Probably in a lot of those cases that same person would get butchered using the exact same force as his opponent because he doesn't know all the tricks yet.

The starter boxes, like Dark Vengeance, are designed to get people playing with two forces. Betrayal At Calth is a mini/board game that also is an excellent starter force for the game.

Depending on how you do it you could make up to 1900 pts of Space Marines out of the Betrayal at Calth boxed set alone.

I'm not saying that would be optimal but it would be a pretty tough force. Alter a few things around and add another Start Collecting box to the force and you could have a pretty optimal force at 2000 pts for $235. USD

You are still using a straw man though. You're still putting forth an argument that I didn't make. I don't think that you can make an army with all the tactical options for the vast majority of games cheaply. I don't know that people are expecting to start a hobby and be kicking ass right off the bat. If I bought a set of golf clubs, even if they were the best set in the world, I'd get my ass handed to me the first time I went out to play with someone that had a second-hand pair but had been playing for a year.

They will probably still get slaughtered with this $2,000 USD pt force, a 2000 pt force that someone else could win a grand tournament with.

But getting a complete Space Marine army with a ton of options for less than $250 USD is pretty good.

Before you put forth any of the other things you might argue too, yes there are armies that the starting cost is going to be a lot higher.

If you want to convert some Chaos Dwarfs into Chaos Squats and count them as CSM it is going to cost you an arm and a leg.

However, if you want to get started playing Warhammer Age of Sigmar or Warhammer 40K, with a decent army of a reasonable size you are going to be looking at paying about $200. USD

That is not a significant barrier to entry for a hobby.

If you wanted to play Infinity with a reasonable army you would probably be paying about $75 USD to get a decent army. If you wanted all the options for your army you would probably have to spend about $650 USD even if you were buying them from the Warstore with a discount.

"In your example you are also probably talking about someone just getting into the game playing against an experienced player."

The result is the same if you handicap one sides force selection. If one players knows exactly what the other one can bring to the table he can tailor make his force around that. He can also load up on items if he knows his opponent is weak in that area. When you take away that advantage both players will seek balanced forces in my experience.

I will use Betrayal at Calth since you used that as your example. I know Pictors has a Marine PA infantry heavy force. I know his anti armor weapons are primarily meltaguns with a short range. Granted he does have missile launchers but they are not the best anti armor available. He has the one dreadnought with a multimelta and he may or may not take it over the assault cannon.

I will build my force with lots of heavy armor vehicles armed with weaponry for gunning Marines in PA. I will have to shoot and scoot to stay away from the meltaguns.

"You are still using a straw man though. You're still putting forth an argument that I didn't make."

And you are cherry picking what has been said and assigning its meaning as you see fit. You are the straw man!

"I will build my force with lots of heavy armor vehicles armed with weaponry for gunning Marines in PA. I will have to shoot and scoot to stay away from the meltaguns."

And you will lose badly against your next opponent.

What is your point?

Is it that know exactly what your opponent has gives you an advantage? If we're friends and playing a friendly game then why would you do this?

If we are strangers meeting at the store on a random day you wouldn't know what I was bringing.

If it was a tournament I wouldn't be the only one you were playing. And your army would get hosed when it played against Eldar or Dark Eldar or Tau.

Your argument is again using the same straw man, a concept you probably didn't know about it until I mentioned it. I'm pretty sure you still don't really understand what it means.

Plus it isn't even true as, if you include the BA Start Collecting set there will be a predator in there with lascannons.