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""CCG" ideas for military battles" Topic


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906 hits since 29 Aug 2016
©1994-2024 Bill Armintrout
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josta5929 Aug 2016 10:55 a.m. PST

Hi all, I've gotten interested in collectible trading card games (CCGs/TCGs) recently and have had some thoughts about how to bring that flavor of gaming into miniatures wargaming, particularly for ranged warfare in more modern times (or sci-fi).

One thought I have is that it wouldn't work well to have a lot of individual character cards in a deck. The reason is that in a real battle situation, it's rare for soldiers to show up to a scene individually. So to have a player introduce one soldier after another would be unrealistic.

Therefore, it would be really hard to use cards for a military skirmish scenario. Maybe that's why I haven't seen it done.

So I propose that CCG-type decks introducing new soldiers to the field should be used for company-sized scenarios. Rather than have cards introducing individual soldiers (though this could be done for leaders, heroes, medics, etc.), the bulk of the "character" cards should introduce squads or preferably fire teams with unique characteristics.

There are game systems already set up to do this, such as Two Hour Wargames and FiveCore. For example, I have the FiveCore Skills Companion, which outlines 100 different skills that individual characters can be given. Simply grant these skills to fire teams rather than individuals, and now you can introduce a new, unique fire team to support those already on the table.

To these "character" cards you could add cards with random events, such as the 19 events in the FiveCore Company Command rules (although my copy doesn't say what the "Confusion" event is supposed to do). Some events may have to be adjusted (weaponized) so that players can use them to their advantage rather than just being random events.

I'm envisioning each player with five cards in their hand, randomly drawn from their own unique deck, playing whichever fire team or event they think might help them on each different turn of the battle.

Thoughts? Any way you might improve on this design? It would be very difficult to test as a solo player, so I'll probably never do it, but it sure sounds fun.

napthyme29 Aug 2016 6:41 p.m. PST

There was a couple military style CCG's back in the hayday. I foget now what they were called. lets see what I can find…

Dixie (Columbia Games) (November 1994)
Eagles (Columbia Games) (December 1995)
Echelons of Fire (Medallion Simulations) (May 1995)
Echelons of Fury (Medallion Simulations) (May 1995)
Tank Commander (Moments in History) (April 1996)

and specifically for WWII, but there out of print and I am out of stock on them…

Battlecards: World Conflict from DG Associates
link

I think I still have a starter and some packs for one of the Echelons games.

Weasel29 Aug 2016 7:41 p.m. PST

I like the way you are thinking quite a bit.

It could combine well with "national" or "army" decks that add specific cards to the mixture.

For that matter, you could do it board game style and combine a squad card with a skill card.

So I take a "rifle squad" and give them an "infiltration' skill card and now I have some scouts, while a "heavy squad" with a "morale"card gives me an elite guards squad.
(hope that makes sense)

wminsing30 Aug 2016 5:22 a.m. PST

There's no reason why something like this shouldn't work. You might want to check out the rules for the Warmachine High Command game; the game wasn't a great success but it had similar ideas to what you're trying to do.

In a similar vein, I've toyed with the idea of a short 'scenario setup' card game where players are attempting to create the most advantageous scenario setup for their side before breaking out the minis. Basically, the pre-battle scouting and maneuver is represented by the card game. So cards would be things like certain terrain features and layouts, event cards like reinforcements or some column takes the wrong road, and so forth. Then the resulting minis scenario can take place basically 'In Media Res' as the forces make contact.

-Will

josta5930 Aug 2016 5:38 a.m. PST

Really cool ideas! If only I had someone to try them out with. Fun to think about, though.

Ottoathome30 Aug 2016 6:22 a.m. PST

Nice, but I lost interest when I realized no toy soldiers would be involved. Besides the game soon becomes, like "Magic" an exercise in "finegelin" to make a killer deck.

Foxgamer30 Aug 2016 7:23 a.m. PST

Take a look at 'combat commander' by GMT games. It's a boardgame which would easily translate to figures. The game uses a deck of cards to generate the action on the table. It's intereactive with leaders providing a central role in activating troops. Whilst not collectible, each nation has a deck of cards tailored to their own nationality (spread over a couple of expansions)
You can Download the rules in the living rules section of their website to give you a flavour…

josta5930 Aug 2016 7:42 a.m. PST

Cool, thanks Foxgamer.

Ottoathome, this is just a way to add a CCG flavor to your favorite miniatures wargame.

Russ Lockwood30 Aug 2016 10:07 a.m. PST

Somewhere in the attic is a WWII Bulge card game Nuts (think that's what it was called). Cards for terrain laid out on a grid and unit cards with d6s for combat.

Let me see if I have anything on it. I recall in my dim and distant memory enjoying it, unlike most of the collectible card games.

The problem I have is that card decks randomize, which is OK for some things, but is a bit odd for recreating battles.

One sec….

Found it in the MagWeb archives.

Nuts: Battle of the Bulge Card Game


Review by Russ Lockwood

Every time you turn around, there's another card game popping up--most recently "based" on a variety of TV shows. Whether the games are any good or not is hard to tell. The game exists based on marketing concepts, not game concepts, and if the particular TV show hadn't sold licensing rights, the card game itself would never see the light of day.

Admittedly, I don't much like collectible card games, with one exception: L5R. As for the rest, well, I've tried a few and came away less impressed with game systems as I was with the artwork.

Now, I'm going to have to start changing my tune to make way for a second card game: Nuts: Battle of the Bulge. This is a historical card game, and is not a collectible card game--what you buy is all you need. Nuts comes in two boxes, a "North" set and a "South" set ($22.95 each or $39.95 USD for both). Each 150-card set can be played on its own, or combined for a massive game.

The Cards

The heart of the game rests upon the cards, each with a combat value representing infantry, tank/anti-tank, and artillery strength as well as a "cohesion value," which we refer to as a damage rating. Each card also contains an entry location, unit patch, and black and white photograph (from the archives of the US Army), and special instructions (if any).

Each of the combat values represent the number of six-sided dice you toss. Generally, 5s and 6s are needed for hits. If you put hits equal to or exceeding an enemy unit's cohesion value, the enemy unit is eliminated. If you put some hits on an enemy, but not enough to eliminate it, at the end of the turn, the enemy unit must roll a cohesion check and see if it stays and continues to fight, or fractures and flees (and thus is eliminated). Generally, panzers and armor take 4-5 cohesion hits, artillery 2-3, and infantry can be all over the place, from 2 to 5.

The sequence of battle (artillery-armor-infantry) is important since an early and strong artillery barrage followed up by an armor assault could possibly eliminate infantry units before they have a chance to fire.

Terrain plays a key role as well, as rivers must be bridged before the Germans can advance, towns can absorb a hit (Bastogne absorbs 3 hits) without damage to the unit dug into the town (or city).

Event cards can be played at the most advantageous times--such as air strikes, fog, ammo shortage, the ever popular Skorzeny Teams, Foul Weather, Famous General, and Bypass. Special rules keep the historical character of the Bulge: American artillery is excellent at counterbattery fire, Germans receive a special first-turn attack bonus, supply is a consideration, and when German armor attacks a town or city, if the player rolls a natural "6", it may "blitz attack" and bypass the town or city.

How Nuts Plays…

The playing field consists of grid with three columns of five rows (when playing one set), or a six by five grid when playing both the North and South decks. The German player wins if he can exit three armor units off the opposite edge of the playing field. The American players wins by stopping this.

The rules take up four pages and play proceeded quickly. Although we had the occasional question, we were able to figure out any ambiguities about which card takes preference over another. (We asked designer Dave McElhannon these questions and his answers appear at the end of this review).

Play was fast, furious, and time slipped away without our knowing it. Since this was our first game, it takes about 10-15 minutes per turn in the beginning, although some turns took as little as 5 minutes towards the end.

The Germans pushed quickly up one flank, being fortunate to have some engineers to erect a bridge and keep the panzers moving. Then, we ran into Bastogne. We could not winkle the infantry unit out of the city, even though we blasted artillery and armor that came to support the dug-in defenders.

Meanwhile, on the left flank, the Americans, with General Patton coordinating, led a counterattack that fell just a bit short, and amazingly, General Patton was one of the US casualties! The Germans were able to hold the flank as the Americans pulled units back to help Bastogne.

At Bastogne, "blitz attacks" and a Bypass card managed to put Germans behind Bastogne and well on the way to exiting the board. Even "Clear Weather" and two US air strikes failed to halt the Germans--until the US played Fuel Shortage. A German Capture Depot card requires a 1 or 2 on a d6 to work, and sadly, I blew the roll. But I had a general who could negate the fuel shortage. However, the US played Mud, which prevented the Germans from entering any town that they had not owned before mud was in play.

And there I sat, hoping for a different weather card to end the mud and allow me to drive off the board in victory. And then came the supply rolls. Since I had a number of US units in between me and German supply, I had to roll. I had four panzer units, and it's a 1-in-6 chance to blow supply rolls. Sure enough, three out of the four panzers blew supply, eliminating the panzers, and at that point, I tossed in the towel.

Speaking of dice, you should have a dozen six-sideds handy for play. We had but two and that slowed the game somewhat as we had to keep picking them up and rerolling--far easier and faster to roll a handful once.

Sharp, Balanced, and Close

Nuts played very close down the stretch. Indeed, I had maneuvered the US out of position, shifted reserves, held the other flank with minimal forces, and pounded down the flank as fast and as far as I could go.

Since this is a historical game, the US and German set up is fixed--the random aspects come in with the cards you draw and when you seize the moment to play them. The Germans start with a significant advantage at the start, but as the Americans play for time, the US forces and cards build up and the pendulum swings the other way. Yet, and I must emphasize this, even until the bitter end (until I rolled such horrendous supply), I still believed I had a chance at winning--indeed, a good chance.

Oddly enough, it was only the weather that held me back--Clear weather and air strikes can be incredibly potent, though I admit the US player had a bit of bad luck on the rolls. Mud was devastating, and I could not draw a Bad Weather, or Snow, or other mud-clearing card. As for the other cards, it was a good mix to put obstacles in the enemy's way or counter enemy cards.

All in all, Nuts offers an excellent design backed by exquisite cards. Play is fast and furious, follows the historical line with enough random action to gives both sides a roughly equal chance of victory, and rivets your attention.

During play, several questions came up regarding the effects of card play. I sent an e-mail to designer David McElhannon, and he sent back the following answers…

Can units moved (via a failed cohesion check roll) with "Bug Out Fever" be moved again during the US turn?

No…that counts as that units move for the turn.

If a Fort is abandoned voluntarily, is the fort card destroyed?

Yes. Since you attach it to a unit, if that unit is destroyed or moves the fort is lost.

If a Famous General provides a +1 bonus to cohesion checks across a division, but units of that division are in multiple areas, will that bonus affect divisional units not stacked with the general?

Yes

If Clear Weather is already in play and another Clear Weather is drawn, must it be played immediately, or can it be held?

No, it is held until such time as the weather changes and is then played.

If an American unit is hunkered inside a town, can the German player move through the area? Can it land on top of the area?

Yes. Yes. See the rules for encirclement. Note that at least one unit must be in the terrain card for it's effects to occur in the area.

Will the American unit block German supply if the Germans are beyond the town? Will it block German supply if the Germans are on the same area as the town?

Yes. Yes. Road junctions were critical during this battle. Control of them was to control the road net…and the supply routes.

Does the Bypass card mean the German units bypass an area, in effect moving two areas? Can the German player use a Bypass card if the American is defending in depth and has a unit in the second area that the German would normally land on? Can German armor bypass two areas and effectively land in the third area? Can the German player use the Bypass card even if there is a river in the way and the Germans have no bridge?

Yes. No. No. Yes (they found a secondary bridge, bridged it themselves, or found a ford).

In the South Deck, are there any "red dot" terrain cards?

Yes. This was a typo. All terrain on the 1 row should be considered to be red dot.

For a German victory, is it exit three panzer units or exit three panzer units AND trace a line of supply back to the German edge.

The victory conditions state that just the exit of 3 mech units will do it. Correction: The units must be in supply.

Publisher: Decision Games
Designer: Dave McElhannon
Development: Christopher Cummins
Card Design: Dave McElhannon
Art Director: Callie Cummins
Decision Games (805) 943-6832 or DecisionGI@aol.com

© Copyright 1998 by Coalition Web, Inc.

Note: MagWeb.com existed from 1996 to 2009. No idea who owns the site, but the last time I visited, Justin Bieber was the main photo. --RSL

josta5925 Oct 2016 8:46 a.m. PST

Just wanted to update you guys because I decided to try this out as a solo game (thanks to folks at The Miniatures Page for the encouragement).

I didn't make actual cards because I wanted something I could save on my computer and not worry about whether my kids were getting into it. Instead, I rolled for team skills and wrote out their names and skills in a single Word document. It would've been really hard to write all the text on cards anyway.

And as it turns out, this is working really well. The order of battle tells me how many squads of two teams will be allowed to end up on the table. But the squads enter the table one game turn at a time. So I'm getting that CCG feel. At the start, I roll for which teams are available, similar to the card draw at the beginning of a CCG battle. Each turn, I decide which of my side's squads enter the table (like choosing one of the cards in play), whereas the enemy's entries are decided by die roll.

Another thing I'm doing is using the number of skills as a parallel to the units' experience. All units already have an experience stat, but I build on their in-campaign experience by allowing them to use more of the skills I rolled for them as I go along. So in the first game, even though I rolled for three skills for each team, I'm only allowing my inexperienced rebels to use the first skill that was rolled, while the more experienced enemy troops get to use their first two skills. In the next games, any team that shows up again (with the new "card draw") will be more experienced and will get to use an additional skill. So my "cards" get "leveled up" with experience. Cool, eh?

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