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Ottoathome28 Aug 2016 8:59 p.m. PST

Which writer's multi-volume work on the Civil War do you prefer, that by Bruce Catton or Shelby Foote?

jowady28 Aug 2016 9:06 p.m. PST

Catton

Ottoathome28 Aug 2016 9:34 p.m. PST

I prefer Catton too.

wrgmr128 Aug 2016 9:49 p.m. PST

Ohhhh saw this, can't decide…both very good.

Ottoathome28 Aug 2016 9:55 p.m. PST

Dear Wrgmr1

You can like both. They are both excellent. Catton wins out for me because he does, I think a much better job of dealing with the civilian aspects of the war and especially that of the North than Foote does.

Calico Bill28 Aug 2016 10:19 p.m. PST

Foote.

SJDonovan28 Aug 2016 11:09 p.m. PST

Catton. I think he is one of the finest writers in the English language. I think Foote was a good raconteur but isn't in the same league as Catton as a writer.

Winston Smith29 Aug 2016 12:00 a.m. PST

Nothing against Catton, but I thought Foote was a better story teller. grin

Rapier Miniatures29 Aug 2016 1:40 a.m. PST

Both.

Foote is an easy read, which considering the sheer scale of the material and size of the volumes is a useful thing.

Allen5729 Aug 2016 2:03 a.m. PST

Catton. For some forgotten reason I could not get through Vol. 1 of Foote.

Brechtel19829 Aug 2016 4:04 a.m. PST

Catton, without a doubt.

Foote was a novelist and admitted it and he didn't understand either the armies nor the soldiers. Catton most certainly did.

Some of the material he talked about when he was involved in Ken Burns' Civil War series was just plain wrong.

Frederick Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2016 4:34 a.m. PST

Both are great – but as a historical account I think Catton does a better job

That being said Foote is, as noted, a better story teller

tigrifsgt29 Aug 2016 4:59 a.m. PST

Catton

panzerCDR29 Aug 2016 5:08 a.m. PST

Wow, that is a tough call, but I would choose Catton. I read him a decade earlier than Foote so my childhood memories may be interfering with objective analysis. Catton's narrative flowed better for me, making odd vignettes such as the corruption of selling cotton during the war and the political wranglings of both sides very interesting. You won't go wrong with either author. Foote's southern drawl is to die for though.

Repiqueone29 Aug 2016 6:12 a.m. PST

Neither have survived the passage of time well, and are now viewed as quite dated by modern historians. Foote was actually a novelist and while a good story teller his tale is now viewed as inaccurate and incomplete. Catton was very much a creature of the 60s Bicentennial and its culmination of the national healing themes that rather skimmed over the less palatable aspects with his narrative. He, again, is now seen as woefully incomplete in his tale.

Neither of these works are often used by scholars as references or in college coursework. As far as a "Popular" history they have largely been superseded by Mc Pherson's Battle Cry, which, in a single volume, is a far superior work to either of the earlier histories.

Nostalgia plays a role in many people's assessment of these writings, but current histories are far better rooted and sourced, and present a noticeably different and more accurate assessment of the war, it's causes and its consequences.

I suspect the next centennial's writings will be dramatically different than either Catton's or Foote's narratives, and they will be seen more as artifacts of the times they were written in, than the times they discussed.

Joes Shop Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2016 6:39 a.m. PST

Catton.

John the Greater29 Aug 2016 6:44 a.m. PST

If I have to choose, I would read Catton but would love to listen to Foote over a couple of beers.

Who asked this joker29 Aug 2016 6:56 a.m. PST

Catton for reading. Foote for interviews.

138SquadronRAF29 Aug 2016 7:27 a.m. PST

Difficult choice? Difficult choice? Really? Have you read Shelby Foote?

The "Confederates fought for some substantially good things."

Well if you read the states reasons for succeeding they never talk about "States Ratz" or tariffs, it's always that pesky slavery thing. Tell you what I looked it up so you don't have to,here are two:

A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery– the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation. There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin.

It refuses the admission of new slave States into the Union, and seeks to extinguish it by confining it within its present limits, denying the power of expansion

Utter subjugation awaits us in the Union, if we should consent longer to remain in it. It is not a matter of choice, but of necessity. We must either submit to degradation, and to the loss of property worth four billions of money, or we must secede from the Union framed by our fathers, to secure this as well as every other species of property. For far less cause than this, our fathers separated from the Crown of England.

Sheesh, not really seeing too many good things there, Mr. Foote. If you want to read the entire declaration, do so. But every sentence in it is about slavery and nothing but slavery.

But you've got to love the part at the end where Mississippi says they have more of a cause to leave the United States than the Colonies did to break away from England. Well, they might be right, since that revolution was over taxation not SLAVERY.

Hey, let's check out Texas' Secession declaration… Maybe we'll find some of those good things the Confederacy stood for in that document.

DECLARATION OF CAUSES: February 2, 1861
A declaration of the causes which impel the State of Texas to secede from the Federal Union.

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become one of the Confederated States to promote her welfare, insure domestic tranquility [sic] and secure more substantially the blessings of peace and liberty to her people. She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery–the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits–a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?

In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon the unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color–a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and the negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.

Nope, not seeing any good things in that document, either, Mr. Foote. Pretty hard to get past the passage where Texas is berating the Northern states for "proclaiming the debasing doctrine of the equality of all men, irrespective of race or color—a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of the Divine Law."

You'll see this ties into the Confederate Constitution later.

But the reason the South succeeded isn't about the Peculiar Institution, surely we'll be able to find some of those "substantially good things" Foote says the Confederacy stood for in Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens' "Cornerstone" speech?

"But not to be tedious in enumerating the numerous changes for the better, allow me to allude to one other though last, not least. The new constitution has put at rest, forever, all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institution African slavery as it exists amongst us the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old constitution, were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that, somehow or other in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away. This idea, though not incorporated in the constitution, was the prevailing idea at that time. The constitution, it is true, secured every essential guarantee to the institution while it should last, and hence no argument can be justly urged against the constitutional guarantees thus secured, because of the common sentiment of the day. Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the government built upon it fell when the "storm came and the wind blew."

Oh dear, still let's press on….

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

Come on there must be something on tariff soon? Well if there was I didn't find it.

On Jefferson Davis "Whatever his reasons, Pierce chose well. Davis made perhaps the best War Secretary the country ever had…" Tell me how good a de facto Secretary of War Davis was in the period 1861-65?

Davis the 2nd George Washington "Rising early, he worked at home until breakfast, then went to his office, where he often stayed past midnight. He had need for all this labor, founding like Washington a new government, a new nation, except that whereas the earlier patriot had worked in a time of peace, with his war for independence safely won, Davis worked in a flurry against time, with possibly a harder war ahead. Like Washington, too, he lived without ostentation or pomp. His office was upstairs in the ugly red brick State House on a downtown corner, ‘The President' handwritten across a sheet of foolscap pasted to the door. He made himself accessible to all callers, and even at his busiest he was gracious, much as Jefferson had been."

On the Confederate Constitution "One important oversight was corrected, however. Where the founding fathers, living in a less pious age of reason, had omitted any reference to the Deity, the modern preamble invoked ‘the favor and guidance of Almighty God.'"

Oh so they South is now fighting a Holy War against those godless, pinko, commie, lefty Yankees. God bless Jefferson Davis and Joseph McCarthy!

Plus, here the kicker, Slavery is God's will (See the TX Declaration of Succession above)

"If pride in the resistance my forebears made against the odds has leaned me to any degree in their direction, I hope it will be seen to amount to no more, in the end, than the average American's normal sympathy for the underdog in a fight."

Excuse me but as an Englishman was the underdog in this fight the, um, slaves?

In Ken Burns' documentary Foot says the cause of the war was "because we failed to do the thing we really have a genius for, which is compromise." Yes that pesky thing where a African-Americas are only worth 3/5 of a white man might be a block to comprise.

As for States Ratz – when northern states refused in enforce the Fugitive Slave Act, claiming it was their right not to enforce unjust laws; it was the Southern slavocracy that complained – so you could say the Confederacy represent the Anti-States Rights position.

So if you want the whole "Lost Cause" narrative and how the war wasn't about slavery Foote is your man.

Several earlier writers point out that Foote was an author of fiction, I'd argue his civil war book should be in the same category.

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2016 7:31 a.m. PST

Catton, an historian. Foote, a novelist. Each quite
good in his own way and as intro's to the conflict,
somewhat acceptable.

And do bear in mind, Catton is a product of the North and
of an age twenty years before Foote was born. Foote was
from pre-WWI Mississippi with all the baggage which that
suggests.

For a MODERN LOOK at the ACW, McPherson, always.

Liliburlero Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2016 7:42 a.m. PST

+1 to what Ed says.

I was lucky enough to talk one-on-one with Shelby Foote in the early 1990's at a library/writer's symposium. The only thing more enjoyable than reading his books was chatting with him. And he was a life-long friend of Walker Percy. Foote told the story of he and Percy going to meet with William Faulkner and Percy being so overcome, he just sat in the car and watched his friend have a lively conversation with Faulkner.

rmaker29 Aug 2016 8:11 a.m. PST

Catton.

Old Contemptibles29 Aug 2016 8:24 a.m. PST

Catton

Pulitzer Prize and U.S. National Book Award for "A Stillness at Appomattox."

His book "The Civil War" was my college text book for one of my advance history courses.

Big Red Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2016 8:27 a.m. PST

Why choose? Read them both.

Blackhorse MP29 Aug 2016 8:30 a.m. PST

Catton.

Bill N29 Aug 2016 8:37 a.m. PST

By the time Foote finished his trilogy on the ACW I had already read several of Catton's works. However at this point it is unlikely I would recommend either trilogies. If you are looking for an overview they are too long.

Dynaman878929 Aug 2016 9:18 a.m. PST

Read Foote, picking up Catton's now. I can't compare but Foote's trilogy is excellent.

Temporary like Achilles29 Aug 2016 9:28 a.m. PST

Both, but if I had ten minutes spare and both available would likely pick up Catton for a browse.

Brechtel19829 Aug 2016 9:48 a.m. PST

Neither have survived the passage of time well, and are now viewed as quite dated by modern historians.

Who?

Ed Mohrmann Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2016 10:13 a.m. PST

Perhaps he meant 'modern historians' by the 'who?'

I'd suggest McPherson would find both Catton and Foote
quite dated and somewhat out of touch, so there's one
example

138SquadronRAF29 Aug 2016 10:29 a.m. PST

Sorry my bad.

McPherson taught me a huge amount about the Civil War and more importantly the decades leading up to the conflict.

Ottoathome29 Aug 2016 11:35 a.m. PST

Ed is quite correct. McPherson is the best one volume work on the civil war ERA I know of. But I made the choice between the two magisterial figures in the field for a pleasant reflection. I've read both. I've already stated my preferences. For me Catton is preferable because he dredges up far more of the actual "words" and the situations of the time, where Foote deals with them in a breezier more "novelistic" style which is understandable.

Old Contemptibles29 Aug 2016 11:38 a.m. PST

As an introduction to the subject, Catton is still the bench mark. McPherson's "Battle Cry of Freedom" is great and a Pulitzer winner.

But his audience are other Historians or ACW enthusiasts (nothing wrong with that). Catton's writing is very approachable for the layman. When I am ask what to read to get an overview, I recommend Catton and go from there.

Brechtel19829 Aug 2016 1:10 p.m. PST

Besides being able to tell the story, Catton had the advantage of growing up around Civil War veterans and listening to their stories of the war.

That is the next best thing to being there.

I agree on McPherson, but I don't agree that Catton is dated.

Foote you can use as a doorstop.

Dn Jackson Supporting Member of TMP29 Aug 2016 1:23 p.m. PST

Foote. It's almost like he was there when he started talking about the war.

Old Pete29 Aug 2016 3:39 p.m. PST

Shelby Foote.

DJCoaltrain29 Aug 2016 5:01 p.m. PST

Allan Nevin's Ordeal of the Union. Eight volumes of great reading. Foote has a longingly obvious narrative in favor of the ante-bellum South, Catton is more floral in his assessment of the Northern military. I read all three for a balanced perspective. My favorite is Wiley Sword, I think he takes North and South to task fairly equally. Well, to be perfectly honest there are hardly any ACW books I don't like. Maybe if Leckie wrote one I could work up a positive dislike for the book.

keyhat29 Aug 2016 5:01 p.m. PST

Catton.
Both are very enjoyable reads, but Catton is a truly remarkable writer, telling his broader story while still able to portray the feeling of the individual soldier like no other writer. He was referred to as the "Ernie Pyle of the Civil War". His AoP trilogy birthed a large amount of interest in the U.S. Civil War, with "A Stillness at Appomattox" winning the Pulitzer prize, as mentioned earlier.
I am also curious as to which "modern historians" have written disparaging things about Catton.

d effinger29 Aug 2016 5:18 p.m. PST

Catton, an historian. He is a great Non-fiction writer. He is responsible for an entire generation to become fascinated with the American Civil War. He researched what he wrote about and _footnoted_ what he used. That's critical.


Foote is a novelist. He did NOT footnote things… none… and didn't do enough research. He is a good writer if you don't mind the fact that some of what he wrote was not really true. The other part is when he "quoted" someone and you never know whether they actually said that or he heard it second hand and may not have gotten an inaccurate account.

Old Contemptibles29 Aug 2016 10:55 p.m. PST

Dr. James Robertson is always referring to "Novelist who write history". No doubt he is talking about Foote. I did like Foote in Ken Burns "The Civil War".

Foote doesn't use foot notes which, at least when I was in college working on my history degree, was a mortal sin.

avidgamer30 Aug 2016 3:54 a.m. PST

Catton, an historian. Yes, hands down America's premier writer and historian.

Brechtel19830 Aug 2016 4:05 a.m. PST

Foote's main problem was that he had no idea of European military history. To my mind without any background in it, it is difficult to write and talk about American military history, as the two subjects are entwined historically and practically. Our military systems evolved from them, especially the British and French.

I recall (and probably not very well) Foote talking about how bloody Gettysburg was, but he had no idea of battles such as Wagram, Borodino, Leipzig, and Waterloo. More casualties were inflicted in those battles than in the three days of Gettysburg. And at Waterloo, the numbers engaged between the Anglo-Dutch Army and the French Army were less than the combined numbers engaged at Gettysburg, and Waterloo only lasted one day.

Foote is from the 'magnolia and peach blossom' school of Civil War history and I would consider it a step to the rear. That being the case, no matter how pleasant it is to read, it cannot be used as source material. Both Catton and McPherson can.

CFeicht30 Aug 2016 5:58 a.m. PST

Catton beats Foote by a yarde :)

basileus6630 Aug 2016 6:44 a.m. PST

Another vote for McPherson.

Who asked this joker30 Aug 2016 7:10 a.m. PST

+1 CFeicht! Well played, sir!

138SquadronRAF30 Aug 2016 7:16 a.m. PST

+1 Brechtel198

Kevin, you nailed it.

donlowry30 Aug 2016 9:28 a.m. PST

Catton was very much a creature of the 60s Bicentennial and its culmination of the national healing themes that rather skimmed over the less palatable aspects with his narrative.

Catton's Army of the Potomac trilogy (3rd volume = A Stillness at Appomattox = Pulitzer Prize for history) was written in the '50s. I would pick it over Foote's trilogy, but then Foote covered the entire war, so really apples vs. oranges. Catton's trilogy on the whole war was good but not as great as his AotP trilogy -- might give the nod to Foote there.

Foote does have a bit of Confederate bias, as Catton has a Union bias. Since my own bias is for the Union, I have to give Catton the win.

BTW, I was not all that impressed with McPherson's work, and I don't understand why he gets all the raves. It's not bad, it's even good; but I wouldn't call it great, let alone the best.

Ottoathome30 Aug 2016 3:05 p.m. PST

I copied this from the thread I put out on the American Heritage History of the Civil War.

I want to point out something which was the original intent of the post.

Virtually every one of you who responded remembered staring at those map/pictures for hours and how formative it was for you in war games, whether you went on to be a Civil War Gamer or not. it was literally a joy, wasn't it and you thrilled with the sense of wonder and imagination.

Indeed Ceterman put it best when he said "We're All Kids."

No body picks it apart, no one declares it "dated" and only a few have found it necessary to sound a sour note on this thread.

My point is that all of you remember the pure joy of war gaming in it and through it, and that's important. In a sister thread I asked for your preference for Foote or Catton. It does not matter WHICH you liked, both are excellent and it doesn't matter which is "dated" or "biased." In your opinion. The purpose of the work of both is to explain to you "The Civil War" and if you understood "The Civil War" by reading them, then the work was successful.

It would be perfectly correct for some ankle-biter to say that "The American Heritage Book" is a "kids book" and not to be classified in the same league as the other two.

I would agree-- almost.

But if you read the American Heritage Book you would KNOW what the Civil War was all about, and from that standpoint and for younger readers, that is all that is required. Catton or Foote, or the American heritage, you would be in good hands and you would know the period. Personal likes and dislikes are of course your own, but if this person likes Catton, and that person likes Foote, and a third remembers the glorious hours pouring over those pictures is of completely no matter as far as historical literacy is concerned or personal taste.

Telling the tale of the Civil War from a Southern Slant is NOT the same as writing a Holocaust Deniers book. There have been plenty of works from a hyperventilating Northern View. Most of them happily forgotten along with their extreme counterparts.

As we have shown on this list which has had some of the most contentious people on TMP all ranked on the same side, we are and CAN be united in a love of the hobby and the game, or the pageantry and the ROMANCE of the period and the game, and that it unites us far more than it divides us.

The American heritage book, with its matchless images of battles in real motion (even though atatic) far exceeds the ability to portray war with mere blocks and arrows on a map. Further it portrays it in a way that appeals to the senses the imagination. How many of you have scried the American Heritage Book carefully for the little vignettes the artist crammed into the corners of the pages, away from the main action. The generals gesticulating, dashing staff officers dashing up with messages, a few lone figures skirmishing here and there, wagons with foaming steeds racing to get to the front. All of them have a terribly "you are there" quality such that you can almost hear the guns. What the pictures portray or are similar to are those cycloramas, which if you have ever been in one, are far more impressive than if you have never been in one.

This book as are others, as are all books are our link to the past and regardless of "interpretation" all of them BRING US THERE. All of them enable us to know what it was all about and even visualize it.

What more do you want from a book?

Therefore take joy in the work that you enjoy which is enjoyed by others too, and look for those instances of common excitement and enjoyment of enthusiasm and excitement, rather than like dyspeptic academics tear apart others works and opinions simply because they are not your own.

War games are the most joyous hobby. Make it so.

Normal Guy Supporting Member of TMP31 Aug 2016 7:57 p.m. PST

Cotton by a long shot. Interesting timing on this question since I have been on a Catton reading jag of late hitting his two Grant volumes. I had these books, and his other books as well, forty years ago, and they were pivotal in shaping my love for the period and the people. I had never read anyone who told the ACW story better--in the words and experiences of the people of the time. It seemed so personal that I almost felt I was there. In re-readingl, I have also become aware that he had more to say about slavery than I remembered.

In my mind, the ACW writers since have built on the style he used, letting primary sources tell the story.

The Gray Ghost01 Sep 2016 1:16 p.m. PST

I enjoyed reading Footes books but have to take everything He writes with a grain of salt, as 138SquadronRAF points out. So I would say Catton.

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